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 CCW Badges 
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:47 pm 
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goalie wrote:
So does this mean I am not cool when I flash my CCW weapons permit holder badge??!?!?

Not nessesarily. Need to know all the facts first.

You could be an undercover LEO disguised as a loser. Boy - would it *ever* be embarassing to fall for that old one. :)

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Last edited by Janitor on Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:51 pm 
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chuckw wrote:
they'd automatically assume you're a cop.

I would think the potential down sides from this would far outweigh having to talk to an LEO on my way out the door because somdbody called them after seeing my piece. One of the last things I'd want is to be mistaken for a cop.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:14 pm 
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Janitor wrote:
I would think the potential down sides from this would far outweigh having to talk to an LEO on my way out the door because somdbody called them after seeing my piece. One of the last things I'd want is to be mistaken for a cop.


Honestly - I'm missing something here. What downsides?

I guess I have some assumptions in my thinking:
1) The places most of us go while carrying have a much higher percentage of nervous nellies than they have of hardened criminals.
2) The odds of me unintentionally displaying to a person who would later be confronted by a criminal while I was present, and thus expect me to "do something" (because they assume I'm a cop) are extremely small.
3) That same person might still expect me to "do something" when confronted by a criminal because they knew I was carrying legally (after having called the police and all.)
4) That the hypothetical hardened criminal will quite possibly shoot you anyway if they catch sight of your gun (even if they don't see a badge.)
5) Some of us have reason to fear that the bias and training of the police might lead them to make a mistake during that "man with a gun" call. For me (a clean cut white guy) that situation might not be nearly as dangerous as it will be for others.

For the record I don't own a ccw badge. But the attitude expressed about this topic on most forums feels hypocritical to me. We believe society (and ourselves) are served by law abiding citizens having the right to carry guns - and we rightly become quite irritated with the brady bunch when they dismiss us as paranoid, insecure "wannabe cowboys".

So it bothers me when we just dismiss others as "wannabe LEOs".


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 Post subject: Want a badge?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:51 pm 
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chuckw wrote:
Janitor wrote:
I would think the potential down sides from this would far outweigh having to talk to an LEO on my way out the door because somdbody called them after seeing my piece. One of the last things I'd want is to be mistaken for a cop.


Honestly - I'm missing something here. What downsides?

I guess I have some assumptions in my thinking:
1) The places most of us go while carrying have a much higher percentage of nervous nellies than they have of hardened criminals.
2) The odds of me unintentionally displaying to a person who would later be confronted by a criminal while I was present, and thus expect me to "do something" (because they assume I'm a cop) are extremely small.
3) That same person might still expect me to "do something" when confronted by a criminal because they knew I was carrying legally (after having called the police and all.)
4) That the hypothetical hardened criminal will quite possibly shoot you anyway if they catch sight of your gun (even if they don't see a badge.)
5) Some of us have reason to fear that the bias and training of the police might lead them to make a mistake during that "man with a gun" call. For me (a clean cut white guy) that situation might not be nearly as dangerous as it will be for others.

For the record I don't own a ccw badge. But the attitude expressed about this topic on most forums feels hypocritical to me. We believe society (and ourselves) are served by law abiding citizens having the right to carry guns - and we rightly become quite irritated with the brady bunch when they dismiss us as paranoid, insecure "wannabe cowboys".

So it bothers me when we just dismiss others as "wannabe LEOs".


I respectfully suggest if you want to wear a badge you take the necessary POST training or otherwise become a sworn officer or agent. The badge is symbol of authority that the state or nation bestows on persons who have trained and are sworn to protect the citizens of the state or nation. Have you done that or perhaps just taken a 6 hour training class?

We have a lot of folks who believe CCW holders are wannabees LEO and I see now reason to give their misguided thoughts any fuel.


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 Post subject: Re: Want a badge?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:53 pm 
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IDPA Shooter wrote:
[I respectfully suggest if you want to wear a badge you take the necessary POST training or otherwise become a sworn officer or agent. The badge is symbol of authority that the state or nation bestows on persons who have trained and are sworn to protect the citizens of the state or nation. Have you done that or perhaps just taken a 6 hour training class?

We have a lot of folks who believe CCW holders are wannabees LEO and I see now reason to give their misguided thoughts any fuel.
And, in fact, the antis have used the existence of CCW badges for just that political purpose.

Not a good thing.

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 Post subject: Don't need a badge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:55 pm 
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IDPA Shooter wrote:
I respectfully suggest if you want to wear a badge you take the necessary POST training or otherwise become a sworn officer or agent. The badge is symbol of authority that the state or nation bestows on persons who have trained and are sworn to protect the citizens of the state or nation.


I'm sorry, I can't resist... So do you think the badge on a rent-a-cop uniform means all that too? I'll respectfully suggest that the badge doesn't mean anything more than what's printed on it. And security companies are in the business of taking advantage of that mistaken assumption.

And you didn't answer my question - what downsides do you see that I don't?

Next, you're continuing in the assumption that people who consider a ccw badge do so because they want to falsely gain some authority. What about the people who want it - as someone mentioned, to reduce their chances of situations caused by "carrying while black"?

I'm not black, and don't believe that I can even pretend to understand what life is like as a black person. But I can empathize and believe that any hassle they have from a mistaken impression that they're a cop is better than the scary experience they may have to police responding to a "black man with a gun" call. What may be a polite conversation with the officer for you and I could be a tense moment at gunpoint for other people.

IDPA Shooter wrote:
We have a lot of folks who believe CCW holders are wannabees LEO and I see no reason to give their misguided thoughts any fuel.


I'm also not sold on telling people something just because it will make it easier for us as a community. It sounds like saying "don't use hollowpoint ammo because the antis will complain about it, even though it might make you safer."

IDPA Shooter wrote:
Have you done that or perhaps just taken a 6 hour training class?

Me: I've taken the 6 hour ccw class @ Bill's gun. I've taken Joel's class - after reading his book cover to cover. I've taken (2) 8 hour defensive handgun classes (beginning and intermediate) taught by the Huntington Beach police dept. And I just finished roughly 40 hours of instruction to be qualified as a CCW instructor. I happen to take this stuff pretty seriously.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to be saying there's no situation where a ccw badge would make a person safer. (I'll point out, this is the same attitude the antis have - just about guns.) I'm saying, "it depends".

:)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:12 am 
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Quote:
"it depends".

But so far, the *only* situation you've brought up that you think it might help in, is if :

A) The badge carrier is in a minority that will potentially be viewed as evil by a responding LEO.

B) The responding LEO badly needs some diversity training.

C) They've got room under their cover garment to conceal the badge as well as their weapon.

D) They're not very good at carrying concealed.

I may well be mistaken, but that's how I understand the situation you posted.

What if the citizen who saw your piece and your badge screams "You're a cop! Do something for Pooh's sake!"? Do you really think that's less likely than anything else in your scenario?

What should you do at that point? Do you simply say ...

"No miss. I've had some fairly extensive training, but I'm really only a citizen just as you are. I carry a badge because ...[fill in your explanation here]"


Wouldn't it probably be more effective to simply learn to conceal better?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:15 am 
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[Have I posted my opinion yet?]

I can see both sides of the arguement. I agree with both sides. Really the only reason [I can think of right now] that I wouldn't carry a badge is because of the bashing and harrassment of these things from the CCW community. I'm not going to do something that the 'elders' look down on.

I do think if one wears the badge, they should try to conceal it also. I think the problems that would occur is if it's on your chest or you are broadcasting the fact that you have a badge. If the badge is on your belt, next to your gun and your shirt slightly covers both, I don't see a risk of the SHTF and someone trying to depend on you.

I would say the badge would help with a casual glance of a gun. If the badge is right there next to the gun, then the person looking won't think about it twice.

I think the question becomes more: Do we want these people thinking twice when they see a gun? Confrontation or dismissal?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:49 am 
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I can also see both sides and while under some conditions there might be some merit to having a badge, until it becomes a CCW requirement I won't get one.

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 Post subject: Okay, now we're conversing!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:03 am 
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Janitor wrote:
But so far, the *only* situation you've brought up that you think it might help in, is if :

A) The badge carrier is in a minority that will potentially be viewed as evil by a responding LEO.

B) The responding LEO badly needs some diversity training.

A&B) What do you think about the situation if the person merely has a fear of the above? This is the crux of my issue with the prevailing attitude. It attempts to decide for others (like the antis do!!!) if their fear is reasonable.
Janitor wrote:
C) They've got room under their cover garment to conceal the badge as well as their weapon.

D) They're not very good at carrying concealed.

C) If someone's using a holster like a smartcarry, the badge is just pointless. But if someone (like me) is only comfortable with paddle holsters, then the dimensions of a badge on your belt is just not a problem.

D) Next, my whole expectation here is that the badge would remain concealed with their firearm. Anything else is advertising, and like open carry, has too many downsides to get into here.
Janitor wrote:
What if the citizen who saw your piece and your badge screams "You're a cop! Do something for Pooh's sake!"? Do you really think that's less likely than anything else in your scenario?

Stop and think about that... What are the odds? That someone who got an accidental glimpse of your gun (which we want to be as unlikely as possible) will be a victim of a crime while you're present? (There's real room for debate here. You can also assume that the people most likely to get a glimpse of your gun are ones you're around a lot. However, they're also likely to know you aren't actually a LEO.)

But even if the odds go against you, won't that same person quite possibly scream "You've got a gun! Do something for Pooh's sake!" anyway?
Janitor wrote:
Wouldn't it probably be more effective to simply learn to conceal better?

I think that the goal is to conceal perfectly, and for nobody to ever know you have a gun (and badge?). But I'll admit that I try to balance comfort and concealment - and sometimes I choose things that conceal less than perfectly because to do otherwise would be uncomfortable. Don't you?

Anyway - thanks! I just wanted to get people thinking a little bit deeper about this issue.


Last edited by chuckw on Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: A personal decision
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:09 am 
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Pakrat wrote:
I think the question becomes more: Do we want these people thinking twice when they see a gun? Confrontation or dismissal?


My thinking is that should be a personal decision. People might opt for the badge because they want the dismissal.

I'll never have a badge because I want the confrontation. I won't seek it out (say by carrying openly) but if it happens accidently I'm happy to have a conversation with the police.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:39 am 
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chuckw wrote:
Janitor wrote:
But so far, the *only* situation you've brought up that you think it might help in, is if :

A) The badge carrier is in a minority that will potentially be viewed as evil by a responding LEO.

B) The responding LEO badly needs some diversity training.

A&B) What do you think about the situation if the person merely has a fear of the above? This is the crux of my issue with the prevailing attitude. It attempts to decide for others (like the antis do!!!) if their fear is reasonable.

Ok. I need to concede this point. I've no idea what it would be like going through a day where this is a personal problem. Have to admit that I'm white (as they come), solidly middle aged and next to me most LEOs have long hair. Not really at much of a risk of being profiled.

Without truely knowing what somebody in this situation would be going through with their CCW, I'll concede that this is enough reason to want to consider some sort of solution to people accidently getting a glimpse of my carry piece. But I'm still not convinced that a badge is the right idea.

chuckw wrote:
But even if the odds go against you, won't that same person quite possibly scream "You've got a gun! Do something for Pooh's sake!" anyway?

You're right on this point too. Same difference - other than in this case you'd simply be a guy with the gun for the perp to look out for. In the other - you'd be a cop. Not sure if there's an advantage in either situation.

I still come back to prefering full concealed carry. I choose pieces that are easy to conceal, and holsters that work. I can carry two pieces with backup magazines when we go out and my wife won't know I'm carrying - unless she asks, or unless her hands wander a bit.

It's really not that hard. Yea - a paddle holster may be more comfortable. But I'd think (especially if I were a worried/troubled minority) that it would be even more comfortable to stay concealed. Get a nice IWB holster and learn to cover it. You might actually be surprised at how comfortable some of the IWBs are these days.

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 Post subject: We agree more than we disagree.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:09 am 
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Janitor wrote:
I still come back to prefering full concealed carry.

Absolutely!
Janitor wrote:
It's really not that hard. Yea - a paddle holster may be more comfortable. But I'd think (especially if I were a worried/troubled minority) that it would be even more comfortable to stay concealed. Get a nice IWB holster and learn to cover it. You might actually be surprised at how comfortable some of the IWBs are these days.

Hmm. I think I'm going to start a topic about holsters somewhere here and get some suggestions on doing that. I'd love an IWB that didn't print horribly and hurt.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:52 am 
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We have a forum dedicated to holsters, so I'll avoid getting into too much detail here.

But - my (relativly) inexpensive Bianchi clip on works well for me. A lot of how comfortable/concealable your sidearm is, depends (obviously) on specifically what the sidearm is.

I (mostly) carry a Kahr P9. It's _very_ easy to conceal in an IWB, even under just a t-shirt.

Need to move this sort of discussion to the Holster forum - yes? :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:52 pm 
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Valid points made on each side of the discussion. As with any thing else it is not just the item but how it is used/not used, the comfort level and most importantly the intent. We should mark this as "agree to disagree"

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