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 Another politician watching too much TV 
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 Post subject: Another politician watching too much TV
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:40 am 
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Do you think he got this idea from a Gene Autry or a Roy Rogers movie? :roll:


http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/ ... 3984c.html

Quote:
Shoot to hurt, pol urges cops

Daily News Exclusive

BY JOE MAHONEY
DAILY NEWS ALBANY BUREAU CHIEF

ALBANY - Sen. David Paterson is pushing a bill that would require cops to shoot to wound, rather than using deadly force - drawing outrage from officers.

The bill also would create a new provision for second-degree manslaughter that would be reserved specifically for an officer who "uses more than the minimal amount necessary" to stop a crime suspect.

Paterson, who is on Eliot Spitzer's ticket as lieutenant governor, has reintroduced the bill twice since first sponsoring it in 2001, refusing to let it die.

In a memo urging its passage, Paterson wrote: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

Current law gives cops a wide berth to use deadly force when a suspect presents a danger to another person's life.

Paterson (D-Harlem) wrote that a police officer, under his legislation, "would have to try toshoot a suspect in the arm or the leg."

"This bill shows absolutely no understanding of just how difficult it is for a police officer when they get into situations requiring the use of deadly force," John Grebert, director of the New York State Association of Chiefs of Police, told the Daily News.

His sentiment was echoed by Dan DeFedericis, president of the New York State Troopers PBA, who said: "We are definitely opposed to this bill ... and we strongly believe it could endanger the lives of police officers and innocent civilians."

While Spitzer already has the endorsement of the New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, that group's Albany lobbyist, John Poklemba, said, "This bill is very ill conceived. I can't imagine any police agencies not being opposed to it."

Paterson told The News last night that his bill would safeguard the public. He explained that he wrote the bill in response to the acquittal of four NYPD officers charged in the 1999 shooting death of the unarmed Amadou Diallo in the Bronx.

"Many people were surprised the officers weren't guilty of something, criminally negligent homicide or something that involved some negligence," he said. "I thought I was writing the bill that really mirrored what the department rules are."

A Spitzer spokesman declined to comment.

Originally published on February 23, 2006


So do you think his intentions is to have the officers shoot the weapon out of their hand, or in the case of an attack, shoot the attacker in both legs to break them and stop the attack?

I know the author of this bill believes he has good intentions, but do you really think that he has though this through? So now an officer is in a situation that he has to react to a situation that a person is in danger and what determines his actions is not the welfare of the victim, but if he will be charged with man slaughter if the attacker dies.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:24 am 
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Essentially second guesses the officer each and every time. Under this legislation, what would happen if the officer dutifully attempts to wound the perp by shooting him/her in the leg but hits an artery in the process?
This is not just bad legislation it's plain stupid. It would probably change the way officers qualify on the range as well since they'd have to show greater proficiency.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:35 am 
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Cam wrote:
...This is not just bad legislation it's plain stupid. It would probably change the way officers qualify on the range as well since they'd have to show greater proficiency.


I think it would have the opposite effect. No one would qualify much over the bare minimum. If you qualify expert then the question is How could you have "missed" and "accidently" shot the guy twice in the chest AND once in the head?

I understand this goes on in MN for qualifications, but that was many years ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:38 am 
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mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote:
Cam wrote:
...This is not just bad legislation it's plain stupid. It would probably change the way officers qualify on the range as well since they'd have to show greater proficiency.


I think it would have the opposite effect. No one would qualify much over the bare minimum. If you qualify expert then the question is How could you have "missed" and "accidently" shot the guy twice in the chest AND once in the head?

I understand this goes on in MN for qualifications, but that was many years ago.

Mostly-


Never though of that angle, but I can understand the train of thought.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:32 am 
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I hope the polic union would organize a mass resignation if this ever passed. Their jobs are dangerous enough, without having to try to deal with this kind of crap.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:05 am 
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saw this over on THR. I was just flabbergasted by this Senator's remarks. I did a quick google on him.He's black, legally blind, and pretty much grew up in Harlem. Y'all can make the logical assumptions from there. :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:50 am 
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I completely agree that this bill is idiotic. However, it's possible to understand what is prompting this issue. You only have to go back to the Amadou Diallo case, where four plain-clothes officers shot an unarmed man 41 times, hitting him 19 times. Even to me, this appears to be over-reaction and unjustified use of force, yet the four officers were acquitted.

An interesting link to multiple police shootings appears in the Police Policy Studies Council website:

http://www.theppsc.org/News/Force.Science-23.htm

It's a bit long to paste in here, but read it if you have a moment. Some of the comments made:

"Emotional contagion," where officers fire merely because others are shooting, is almost certainly an element of at least some multiple-officer shootings,..."

Also: "With LAC shootings involving only one officer, an average of 3.59 police rounds were fired. When 2 officers got involved, the average jumped to 4.98 rounds and with 3 officers or more to 6.48. "The number of rounds fired per officer increases in multiple-officer shootings by as much as 45 per cent over single-officer shootings,"

It's tough to reach meaningful comclusions, but the trend seems to point to a need for additional training in stress-inducing scenarios.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:26 pm 
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BigRobT wrote:
saw this over on THR. I was just flabbergasted by this Senator's remarks. I did a quick google on him.He's black, legally blind, and pretty much grew up in Harlem. Y'all can make the logical assumptions from there. :shock:


Yep - we all know what that means!

IT'S BILL CLINTON'S EVIL TWIN! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:27 pm 
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I think I am for the bill, especially if this is New York. Perhaps they should simply take the officers guns away and issue Tasers. Maybe it is time some in the police see what it is like to be disarmed in a high crime area or at least what it is like to have to pay LARGE legal bills for a self-defense shooting.

Yes I know it is stupid to shoot to wound, but so is telling me I have ALWAYS have to try to “retreat” amongst other things.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:17 pm 
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I can understand the "shoot to wound" concept by a LEO. It does makes sense. However, is it practical?? The bigger picture (IMHO) is take take a violent suspect down and protect other people in the vicinity. If that means killing them, so be it. TTousi, yes, I had read that over on THR. And there are a couple of other incidents where excessive gunfire erupted, endangering nearby citizens. The one that comes most easily to mind is the traffic stop where the police fired approximately 120 rounds into a vehicle and only hit the perp a few times, killing him (I think I recall twice, but it may have been as many as four times)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:25 pm 
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OK, enlighten me. If you're "shooting to wound," what are you aiming at? Arms and legs, right? Groin, maybe? And your chances of hitting that are.....? In a pressure situation? Slim? Bleak? None?

Police shoot for the same reason I was taught to shoot--to end the threat. Unfortunately, because of the nature of human physiology, ending the threat quickly tends to put the life of the perpetrator at risk. The officer isn't "shooting to kill" but shooting to stop someone from doing something that is an immediate danger to the officer or another person.

Scenario that happened in my neighborhood over two years ago. 4:45 AM, cop pulls up to what he sees as suspicious activity in a van. Suspected druge deal. Man runs from the scene, cop pursues. Man stops in a driveway, turns and reaches into his waistband. Cop fires COM, man falls and dies at HCMC.

When I mentioned this to someone at work (it happened two blocks from where I live), the person responded, "Couldn't he shoot to wound?" How? This guy isn't a robot. Both the cop and the runner were under high stress. Could the cop have hit his kneecap or shin? Possibly, but if he missed, or merely grazed the guy, he would have been in some trouble, since that person probably wasn't reaching for his cell phone.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:35 pm 
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Old Dude, let's not forget that some of these "suspects" may be under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or both. Under those circumstances, "shooting to wound" may make the suspect more agitated and more dangerous. Kind of like an injured animal. In a utopic world, yes, shooting to wound would be best. Of course, in a utopic world, there wouldn't be any criminals, would there??

In theory, shooting to wound seems like a great idea. In practice, it's inane. (For HammAR, a synonym would be: "fatuous") :D

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:17 pm 
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My point exactly, which I made inexactly.

I cannot imagine any time one could shoot to wound other than in a classic duel where both parties are standing still.

And "fatuous" is a pretty good word for that expectation.....

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:53 pm 
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Someone should put Senator Paterson thru some scanario based simunition training, and see if he can wing the gun out of someones hand when his fine motor skills go bye-bye which happens to us when under this type of stress.

It's amazing what happens to our fine motor skills under duress. And you certainly need fine motor skills to aim a pistol to wound.

I'd also expect most LE associations, unions, and the like to vigorously oppose such legislation.

Guns are lethal force, and should remain so, in my opinion. I'd hate for any of this shoot to wound nonsense to trickle down to civilians having to use lethal force to defend ourselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:00 pm 
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BigRobT wrote:
I can understand the "shoot to wound" concept by a LEO. It does makes sense. However, is it practical?? The bigger picture (IMHO) is take take a violent suspect down and protect other people in the vicinity. If that means killing them, so be it. TTousi, yes, I had read that over on THR. And there are a couple of other incidents where excessive gunfire erupted, endangering nearby citizens. The one that comes most easily to mind is the traffic stop where the police fired approximately 120 rounds into a vehicle and only hit the perp a few times, killing him (I think I recall twice, but it may have been as many as four times)


Huh :?: :?: Did I miss something here?

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