Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive :: View topic - Big Island Park, "City of Orono" Lake Minnetonka

Quote:

Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick, It has recently come to my attention that the rules and regulations for Big Island Nature Park, posted on the City of Orono web site at <a target="_blank" href="http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm">http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm</a>, are not in compliance with state law. The page currently contains the following language: <blockquote>Firearms, etc. Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times. Discharge of firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited. </blockquote> As I am sure you are aware, the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act of 2003, codified in Minnesota Statute 624.714, allows persons issued a permit by their country sheriff to carry a firearm on or about their persons in a public place -- including a public park. The permit is, as Subdivision 2(c) makes clear, "...a state permit...effective throughout the state," including, of course, Orono. The statute also specifically states, in Subdivision 23, that "No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry." To keep Orono and the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District in compliance with state law and to avoid any unfortunate and potentially dangerous confusion on the part of law enforcement personnel or other citizens, I respectfully recommend that the city take immediate steps to update the park rules and web site to conform to state law. One way this could be done is demonstrated below: <blockquote><s>Firearms, etc.</s>Weapons: Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times, with the exception of firearms carried by persons possessing a Minnesota Permit to Carry a Pistol. Discharge of firearms, firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited. </blockquote> If you have any questions, I am at your service. I look forward to your timely reply. Sincerely, Andrew Rothman Executive Director Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructor

Hunter07 wrote:

Go get 'em Andrew! :twisted:

Call 'em out and take them to task as needed.

J. R. wrote:

Nicely done Andrew. Can't wait to see the response. Who are Wells and Mattick? MCWD and City of Orono Attorneys?

JimC wrote:

Says you can't fish from a city dock??? That's weird.

JimC wrote:

Says you can't fish from a city dock??? That's weird.

Quote:

To: jwhite@ci.orono.mn.us, cbremer@ci.orono.mn.us, lmcmillan@ci.orono.mn.us, jmurphy@goldengate.net, dfranchot@ci.orono.mn.us
Subject: Second notice: Park rules correction
Cc: "Marc S. Berris, Esq.", "William Wells, Orono City Administrator" <bwells@ci.orono.mn.us>, "Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick, Esq." <smattick@ck-law.com>

Mr. Mayor and members of the city council,

When I sent the message below to Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick a week and a half ago, I expected at least the courtesy of a reply. I am sorry to say I received none.

Once again: a portion of your park rules stand in conflict with state law and are therefore nullified an unenforceable. Should any city official take any steps to enforce such a rule, they would open the city to legal action, up to and including a civil action under 42 USC 1983.

I expect that you will move will all haste to correct them, and suggest that next Monday's council meeting would be an ideal time to do so.

Sincerely,

Andrew Rothman
Executive Director
Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructors

Quote:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Park rules correction
Date: Sun, April 12, 2009
To: "William Wells, Orono City Administrator" <bwells@ci.orono.mn.us>,
"Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick, Esq." <smattick@ck-law.com>
Cc: "Marc S. Berris, Esq."

Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick,

It has recently come to my attention that the rules and regulations for Big Island Nature Park, posted on the City of Orono web site at http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm, are not in compliance with state law.

The page currently contains the following language:

Quote:

Firearms, etc. Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times. Discharge of firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited.

As I am sure you are aware, the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act of 2003, codified in Minnesota Statute 624.714, allows persons issued a permit by their country sheriff to carry a firearm on or about their persons in a public place -- including a public park. The permit is, as Subdivision 2(c) makes clear, "...a state permit...effective throughout the state," including, of course, Orono.

The statute also specifically states, in Subdivision 23, that "No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry."

To keep Orono and the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District in compliance with state law and to avoid any unfortunate and potentially dangerous confusion on the part of law enforcement personnel or other citizens, I respectfully recommend that the city take immediate steps to update the park rules and web site to conform to state law.

One way this could be done is demonstrated below:

Quote:

<s>Firearms, etc.</s>Weapons: Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times, with the exception of firearms carried by persons possessing a Minnesota Permit to Carry a Pistol. Discharge of firearms, firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited.

If you have any questions, I am at your service. I look forward to your timely reply.

Sincerely,

Andrew Rothman
Executive Director
Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructors

Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick wrote:

Mr. Rothman,

I received your two emails for the first time this morning. My email system will not accept emails that have attachments or internal internet links from people that have not sent me emails in the past.

I have had an opportunity to review your initial request and will speak with the city regarding your concerns. This item will not be on the agenda for the April 27th meeting.

I will forward any decision the City makes regarding your request to you via email.

Thank you for you legal opinion regarding the park rules and the City’s liability.

Soren

Author:	J. R. [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:56 am ]
Post subject:	Big Island Park, "City of Orono" Lake Minnetonka
"Firearms are prohibited" http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm Anyone?

Author:	Ronin069 [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:
This is a joke right? Right??? I do not think I have ever seen the words : No Not Prohibited Repeated so many time before - swear its sounds like something Suchie would read as an on-air bit!

Author:	DeanC [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:
The only thing allowed in the park:

Author:	SultanOfBrunei [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:
Check out these two threads. Ree and I were able to get the city code & park sinage issues cleaned up in Lakeville. All in all it was pretty easy to get fixed. There was some concern about blowback, getting the city upset and ahving someone get uppoty and want to change the State's carry laws. A Signage Issue Signage Issue - Reply From Lakeville This thread is not Lakeville specific, but a discussion on fixing up these around MN. Clean up the City Codes Blitz

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:50 am ]
Post subject:
I'm on it. Quote: Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick,<br><br>It has recently come to my attention that the rules and regulations for Big Island Nature Park, posted on the City of Orono web site at <a target="_blank" href="http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm">http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm</a>, are not in compliance with state law.<br><br>The page currently contains the following language:<br><br><blockquote><b><u>Firearms, etc.</u></b> Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times. Discharge of firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited.<br></blockquote><br>As I am sure you are aware, the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act of 2003, codified in Minnesota Statute 624.714, allows persons issued a permit by their country sheriff to carry a firearm on or about their persons in a public place -- including a public park. The permit is, as Subdivision 2(c) makes clear, "...a state permit...effective throughout the state," including, of course, Orono.<br><br>The statute also specifically states, in Subdivision 23, that "No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry."<br><br>To keep Orono and the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District in compliance with state law and to avoid any unfortunate and potentially dangerous confusion on the part of law enforcement personnel or other citizens, I respectfully recommend that the city take immediate steps to update the park rules and web site to conform to state law.<br><br>One way this could be done is demonstrated below:<br><br><blockquote><b><s>Firearms, etc.</s></b><u><b></b><b>Weapons</b></u><b>:</b> Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times<u>, with the exception of firearms carried by persons possessing a Minnesota Permit to Carry a Pistol</u>. Discharge of <u>firearms,</u> firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited.<br></blockquote><br>If you have any questions, I am at your service. I look forward to your timely reply.<br><br>Sincerely,<br><br>Andrew Rothman<br>Executive Director<br>Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructor

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Big Island Park, "City of Orono" Lake Minnetonka http://ellegon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12478	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Hunter07 [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:53 am ]
Post subject:
Go get 'em Andrew! Call 'em out and take them to task as needed.

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:04 am ]
Post subject:
Sure, but we always start with honey, not vinegar. It worked well in Rochester. (But I did prominently CC the MADFI attorney, just to make sure the email has some traction. ) Hunter07 wrote: Go get 'em Andrew! Call 'em out and take them to task as needed.

Author:	J. R. [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:
Nicely done Andrew. Can't wait to see the response. Who are Wells and Mattick? MCWD and City of Orono Attorneys?

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:
They are the city administrator and city attorney. J. R. wrote: Nicely done Andrew. Can't wait to see the response. Who are Wells and Mattick? MCWD and City of Orono Attorneys?

Author:	JimC [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Says you can't fish from a city dock??? That's weird.

Author:	tman065 [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:
JimC wrote: Says you can't fish from a city dock??? That's weird. Fishing lines and boat motors....

Author:	ecrist [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:
JimC wrote: Says you can't fish from a city dock??? That's weird. That's actually a common rule, and, iirc, a regulation in DNR codes. A certain county I'm aware of enforces this quite a bit. As was said, it's mostly due to fishing lines, boat motors, and the safe entry/departure from boats for folks launching a craft. Hard to board your boat when 15 other people are trying to fish from the dock...

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:41 am ]
Post subject:
Well, they haven't responded. Next email went to the city council and mayor, copied to the city administrator and attorney. Quote: To: jwhite@ci.orono.mn.us, cbremer@ci.orono.mn.us, lmcmillan@ci.orono.mn.us, jmurphy@goldengate.net, dfranchot@ci.orono.mn.us Subject: Second notice: Park rules correction Cc: "Marc S. Berris, Esq.", "William Wells, Orono City Administrator" <bwells@ci.orono.mn.us>, "Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick, Esq." <smattick@ck-law.com> Mr. Mayor and members of the city council, When I sent the message below to Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick a week and a half ago, I expected at least the courtesy of a reply. I am sorry to say I received none. Once again: a portion of your park rules stand in conflict with state law and are therefore nullified an unenforceable. Should any city official take any steps to enforce such a rule, they would open the city to legal action, up to and including a civil action under 42 USC 1983. I expect that you will move will all haste to correct them, and suggest that next Monday's council meeting would be an ideal time to do so. Sincerely, Andrew Rothman Executive Director Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructors Quote: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Park rules correction Date: Sun, April 12, 2009 To: "William Wells, Orono City Administrator" <bwells@ci.orono.mn.us>, "Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick, Esq." <smattick@ck-law.com> Cc: "Marc S. Berris, Esq." Mr. Wells and Mr. Mattick, It has recently come to my attention that the rules and regulations for Big Island Nature Park, posted on the City of Orono web site at http://www.ci.orono.mn.us/rules_&_regulations.htm, are not in compliance with state law. The page currently contains the following language: Quote: Firearms, etc. Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times. Discharge of firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited. As I am sure you are aware, the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act of 2003, codified in Minnesota Statute 624.714, allows persons issued a permit by their country sheriff to carry a firearm on or about their persons in a public place -- including a public park. The permit is, as Subdivision 2(c) makes clear, "...a state permit...effective throughout the state," including, of course, Orono. The statute also specifically states, in Subdivision 23, that "No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry." To keep Orono and the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District in compliance with state law and to avoid any unfortunate and potentially dangerous confusion on the part of law enforcement personnel or other citizens, I respectfully recommend that the city take immediate steps to update the park rules and web site to conform to state law. One way this could be done is demonstrated below: Quote: <s>Firearms, etc.</s>Weapons: Firearms, explosives, slingshots, bows and arrows, paintball guns and other weapons are prohibited in the Park at all times<u>, with the exception of firearms carried by persons possessing a Minnesota Permit to Carry a Pistol</u>. Discharge of <u>firearms, </u>firecrackers or fireworks or detonation of explosive devices of any kind in the Park is prohibited. If you have any questions, I am at your service. I look forward to your timely reply. Sincerely, Andrew Rothman Executive Director Minnesota Association of Defensive Firearm Instructors

Author:	JimC [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:09 am ]
Post subject:
They're probably fumbling around trying to look up and read what the law actually says. You sent them into a Tizzy, lol

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Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:
Well, the city attorney's position is that the dog ate his homework: Orono City Attorney Soren Mattick wrote: Mr. Rothman, I received your two emails for the first time this morning. My email system will not accept emails that have attachments or internal internet links from people that have not sent me emails in the past. I have had an opportunity to review your initial request and will speak with the city regarding your concerns. This item will not be on the agenda for the April 27th meeting. I will forward any decision the City makes regarding your request to you via email. Thank you for you legal opinion regarding the park rules and the City’s liability. Soren I swear, this doesn't have to be a big deal. Rochester's city attorney and city council fixed an almost identical problem after a single email, and thanked us for bringing the issue to their attention. No muss. no fuss, no bother.