I found this information from Ohio. Elyria is a town aproximately 30 miles west of Cleveland. At the bottom of this post is some information from their law regarding posting of businesses. Based on the little reading I have done on the subject, the Ohio carry community has been fairly successful at getting businesses to remove posting signs. While I am obviously not a lawyer, I think I prefer the clarity of things as written into our law. Thank you to all who helped write it.

http://www.ohioccw.org/content/view/3844/83/


Elyria's Midway Mall Removes "No Guns" Signs
Written by Rich Hardway
Thursday, 22 March 2007

I have been asked to write an account about my experience in changing management’s opinion and policy on posting “No Guns” signs on the doors at Elyria's Midway Mall in Elyria, OH so others might learn from the way I handled the situation.

I was asked by Daniel White, OFCC Director-At-Large, to verify that the Midway Mall had indeed posted signs on the doors as reported by a member in the forums on the OFCC web site. He asked me if I would be willing to talk to someone about their policy if the doors were in fact posted.

I accepted his request on behalf of the members of OFCC and went to the mall that evening after work. I walked the perimeter of the mall to look at each door and indeed all but one was posted. I then went to the office of the mall but found it to be closed because it was after 5:00 PM.

I then decided this was a good thing because it gave me a chance to prepare what I wanted to say to the mall managers. I then went to the information booth where they rent the strollers and wheel chairs to ask who I might be able to talk to about the signs or someone in public relations. The lady handed me a business card for the assistant manager of the mall.

That night at home I developed my plan of action with the power points that I wished to cover in a meeting with him the next morning

The next morning bright and early I went to the mall wearing an OFCC shirt and a large smile on my face. I asked to speak with the gentleman on the card I received the night before. When he came to the counter, I introduced myself and asked him if we could sit down and discuss the mall’s new policy prohibiting legal concealed handguns.

We began our conversation on what OFCC is and represents. Then we began talking about the mall’s reasons for changing their policy and posting of the property. Within a few minutes, he stopped me and said that he wanted to bring in a couple other management members. After a brief introduction to the general manager, Mark, I began all over again. I asked them why they suddenly changed their policy. Mark said that they wanted to create a safer environment for their customers’ shopping experience. I asked them if they truly feel that they had achieved this goal by refusing to allow law-abiding citizens in the mall that had properly and legally obtained a permit from the state of Ohio to carry a concealed handgun. I went on to say that I don’t feel they did. They made a reference to the recent shooting in a Utah mall and that they did not want a similar action in their mall. I fully agreed with them that I also never want to hear or see such a thing in any mall.

I then countered with the facts. The facts are that a deranged teenager went to that mall with a premeditated plan to illegally assault and kill as many victims as he possibly could. If it was not for the fact that an off-duty police officer was dining in that mall at the time, many more innocent people would have become victims at the killer’s hands. The truth is that due to the off duty police officer’s ability to carry a concealed handgun, he was able to cut the rampage short until police arrived and put an end to the carnage. This man saved innocent lives.

I then asked them if they really think that any sign posted at the door of the Utah mall would have stopped the teen from entering that mall on that day with the small arsenal that he had to support his plan of terror. In fact, that mall did have a “No Weapons” policy. John Lott reported on his website and linked to a picture of the actual sign on the doors. You can view the sign by clicking here.

I asked both managers if they had ever read the concealed carry law, as I handed them a copy of it. Then I made the following statement: “People that have a license to carry a concealed firearm issued by the state of Ohio have obtained that license after successfully attending the mandatory class, been fingerprinted by their local Sheriff, and passed a complete background check that the Sheriff has performed.”

When someone has a license you know that that person is someone that has a clean background and has never been convicted of a serious crime. You can not say that about anyone who comes into your mall that has not received a license just off the fact they don’t have a license

Then I told them that people that have a license would do one of two things when they see the sign on the door. They will either return to their car and remove their sidearm, locking it in the trunk before returning to shop or they will do their shopping at a retailer that respects and supports their Second Amendment rights under the law.

Let’s look at Wal-Mart for a moment. I think we can all agree that Wal-Mart is one of the largest retails in the world and they understand the thinking here. They removed their signs and changed their policy to a pro-choice stance and with that they let the American people decide if they want to carry a concealed handgun or not with their license.

Although law-abiding people will honor your request to not bring a weapon into your mall, criminals will ignore your signs and do as they please. Which customers would you prefer do their shopping here?

The Manager was agreeing with what I was saying and he said that the mall would remove the signs and make changes to their policy as well.

Three hours later I received the following e-mail from him.
Mr. Hardway:

Thank you for coming in to see me today and addressing your concerns. After talking with you and considering the facts that you have voiced we have reconsidered our position and have elected to remove the signs prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons. They have all been removed today.

Our intention for posting the signage was an attempt to create a safer environment for our shoppers. However, your points are well taken and thus we have removed the signage.

We hope you and the other members of the O.F.C.C. will continue to consider the Midway Mall a safe place to shop in the future that does value and respect your rights under Federal and State laws. We recognize the fact as pointed out by you that people whom have been issued a permit to carry a concealed weapon are law bidding citizens and that’s the type of shoppers we want in our stores.

Thanks again.

Mark J. Bressler
General Manager
Midway Mall


As OFCC members, we can all make a difference with a polite and understanding voice. The use of diplomacy with education and the truth must be our weapons of choice. The facts are a powerful thing when delivered with respect.


Mr. Hardway is a proud OFCC member that shows what one dedicated individual can achieve. This is his first article for our website.


http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention ... 070314.pdf

Private Property and the Workplace
Under the law, private employers may, but are not required to, prohibit
the presence of firearms on their property or motor vehicles owned by
the employer. You should make yourself aware of your employer’s
policies before you go to work with a handgun. In addition, the owner
or person in control of private land or premises or person leasing land or
premises from the government may post a sign in a conspicuous location
that prohibits persons from carrying firearms or concealed handguns.

Mall owners in MN CANNOT legally post. Oh sure they do........... think MOA but as landlords, MN statute is clear.

4) "Private establishment" means a building, structure, or portion thereof that is owned,
leased, controlled, or operated by a nongovernmental entity for a nongovernmental purpose.(c) The owner or operator of a private establishment may not prohibit the lawful carry or
possession of firearms in a parking facility or parking area.
(d) This subdivision does not apply to private residences. The lawful possessor of a private
residence may prohibit firearms, and provide notice thereof, in any lawful manner.
(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or possession of firearms by tenants or
their guests.(f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets
forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is
not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity.

The writers of the law did the leg work for us So thankyou

On the forum we all know it, but malls keep posting, and most people are completely ignorant of the actual details of the law.

Very good advice.

I think that you guys are missing the point. This was a great example of how to get the signs down from any business, not just malls.

Sure, we can just not shop at a place that posts. Other customers will just take our place, any they'll never know why they didn't get our money. (They'll never even know that they didn't get our money.)

We can send an email or snail mail complaining, but people are busy and it'll probably get trashed in a blink of an eye.

But, if an organization were to send a "diplomat" to explain why the signs are a bad idea, to answer questions, and mostly importantly to show that we're not a bunch of crazy loons, we may have more success.

That said, I'm not a diplomat.

Ignorance of the law is not a qualified defense.

Yes we know what it is, I for one enjoy that smirk I get when seeing "signs". When and if the sheeple become edumacated.............

This is a very professional response. A shirt with the name of the organization and an explaination of the law by a professional on behalf of thousands of people. Real learning situation here.

Much better than provoking an incident. Or throwing a "law" at them.

I wholeheartedly agree. An impressive approach with good results.

We could have them visit certain Police and Sheriff depts and explain the law to them

Great approach.............only IF your audience is WILLING to LISTEN.

Read the threads about MOA or Hutchinson mall.

Wow! That is a wonderful story. Of course, the mall management clearly was willing to listen from the start.

That's what I felt too. They didn't seem to be pro or anti-gun, they just put up signs because it was the thing to do. Kudos to them for listening and being willing to follow through when shown the facts. (Perhaps facts were not a bitch in this case!)

They were willing to listen because of the careful sales approach. A nice guy wearing a shirt with a logo and a big smile introduced himself and asked to talk about their policy on behalf of his organization.

He did not hide behind a letter, he approached like as a successful salesman or client would and expressed interest in the mall and it's policy. He then explained the law and showed them who the signs were directed against. He kept them off the defensive.

It's why some people can sell and others can't. He was able to walk in and make friends because of his public relations skills, rather than his mastery of the law. They now believe in his approach to gun policy rather than regard the carry law as another stupid government regulation some nut insisted they follow whether they liked it or not.

I still think some of you are missing the point. This writer made an appointment, had a real idea of what he was going to say and was able to counter the managements pushbacks. Sure, some of the time, there will be people who end the meeting shortly after it starts without listening to you. If that happens, you thank them for their time and move on.

We will never know unless we try. I believe this approach is far better than simply smirking as we pass by said signs. Again, education, enlightenment and making a friend is much better than ripping said management on an internet forum. YMMV.

Edited to add: Dick beat me to it and hit my points. However, in my defense, his post was not there when I started my musings. Weird.

Wouldn't a note to the Bloomington Police about the MOA do the trick and put pressure on them to remove the meaningless signs.