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 Not entirely hypothetical question 
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 Post subject: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:47 pm 
The Man
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A bit of a preface: this didn't happen here -- ever -- and it's only happening here now as a thought experiment. It happened over at day care [copy saved here], in their instructor area, which is not generally available to the browsing public. The bolding, below, is added by me, as was the picture of the poster.

You may assume, purely for the purposes of this hypothetical, that it was posted to the Forum's Instructor Discussions area.

Conditions of contest: you may reply as you would, given who you are or what you do -- if you're a Minnesota carry permit instructor, say, who also heads an instructor organization, you can reply to this not-entirely-hypothetical post as yourself. If you're none of the above, you can also reply as yourself. Please preface such replies with Speaking as Myself.

You may also reply as though you were a carry permit instructor who has just read this, or a non-instructor who has accidentally been given access to the instructor subforums, or as a Forum admin or moderator, or whatever role you'd like to take on for the hypothetical. Please preface such replies with Speaking as a Hypothetical [whatever].

You may participate as many times as you care to, here, in the world-readable Certified Instructor Organizations subforum.

You may also choose not to participate; that's fine.
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Opinions please

by SAM on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:01 pm
ImageHad a gentleman call today about taking the Permit to Carry Class and he was wondering about bringing his 19 yr. old daughter with his group of students. I understand that you cannot APPLY for a P2C until you are 21. Should I issue a certificate with no date--to be filled in later? Should I tell him to just have her take the class when she has turned 20 as the certificates are good for one year ? I am open to any and all ideas and feedback. Thanks in advance. Scott
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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Speaking as myself:
You, Sam or Scott, or whatever you call yourself, are a sleazebag and a moron. Deliberately giving out a signed undated certificate to an underage person -- and let's not play games: that's just what you're discussing doing -- is, at the very best, just one submission away from fraud.

Fraud isn't okay. Fraud is committed by sleazebags. You, sir, are a sleazebag for so casually contemplating it.

Strong language -- and blog post; this ties in nicely to the ACORN scandal -- to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Speaking as myself. Why are you openly discussing something which someone was clearly asking in confidence? Did you seek permission from those involved to discuss a private issue in open forum at another site?

I believe this was what caused a previous rift between the two sites.


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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Blued Steel wrote:
Speaking as myself. Why are you openly discussing something which someone was clearly asking in confidence?
Multiple reasons. One: because I think it shows, among other things, what a lousy job the BCA is doing in fulfilling their statutory responsibilities under the 2005 MCPPA, and how that lousy job is being enabled by those instructors who let this kind of nonsense [I'm trying to restrain myself; other terms occur to me] pass with at most barely a word of protest where fraud is being openly discussed. As you'll note, the clearest suggestion that this wasn't okay came from a non-instructor, DeanC. Others sat on their hands, or were . . . gentle in their criticism of fraud.
Quote:
Did you seek permission from those involved to discuss a private issue in open forum at another site?
Nope. I don't ask the day care kiddies for, well, anything. Nor did I ask their permission to blog about it, and, you bet, I'm doing that, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Well, if I were a a firearms instructor, I wouldn't sign an undated certificate, because I tend to believe in the rule of law, and because I hold truth and honor in high regard.

On the other hand, if I were not only a firearms instructor but also a rabid 2A supporter who believed the permitting process to be an unlawful intrusion on the rights given to me by God and guaranteed by the constitution (you know, the kind of person who shows up OCing at a pro-Obama political rally), then I suppose I might sign an undated certificate so as to achieve justice in the face of unconstitutional legislation.

Speaking as myself, while I agree that the BCA's oversight in this area is lax, I note that they have limited statutory authority and no budget for this sort of work. If I were to prepare a list of things that I should like the BCA to change, this particular line item would be unlikely to appear on the first page.

Speaking as myself again, I observe that many people write foolish things and share ill-conceived ideas in private and semi-private forums. Speaking as a Lutheran, I would note that we are compelled to put the best construction on the acts of others. In this case, speaking as a Lutheran, I would prefer to believe that the Mr. S.A.M. was merely exploring a hypothetical much as we are here and had no actual intent to follow through.


Last edited by MostlyHarmless on Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:36 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
Well, if I were a a firearms instructor, I wouldn't sign an undated certificate, because I tend to believe in the rule of law, and because I hold truth and honor in high regard.

On the other hand, if I were not only a firearms instructor but also a rabid 2A supporter who believed the permitting process to be an unlawful intrusion on the rights given to me by God and guaranteed by the constitution (you know, the kind of person who shows up OCing at a pro-Obama political rally), then I suppose I might sign an undated certificate so as to achieve justice in the face of unconstitutional legislation.
I think that's probably the best pravda* for this. And I don't -- at all -- criticize you for coming up with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:55 pm 
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In the interest of fairness, if the question is taken from a restricted forum and posted publicly, can we post the resolution, too?
SAM wrote:
The gentleman and his daughter were in my class today. After they arrived, and I got a chance to talk to them a little further into their quest for a certificate for the daughter, this is what I found. She is 19 yrs. old and is going to school in Maine. She would like to get her permit to carry in that state. They took the class-paid their fees-and left with SIGNED and DATED certificates. My certificate is accepted as proof of training and their permit is available at age 18.


Speaking as myself, I let my students sit through my class as many times as they'd like(free until renewal time). If she were my student and wanted to take the class at 19, great. She'll get a signed and dated certificate. If she wants to come back at 20 and do it again, more power to her, with no extra cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:00 pm 
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princewally wrote:
In the interest of fairness, if the question is taken from a restricted forum and posted publicly, can we post the resolution, too?
SAM wrote:
The gentleman and his daughter were in my class today. After they arrived, and I got a chance to talk to them a little further into their quest for a certificate for the daughter, this is what I found. She is 19 yrs. old and is going to school in Maine. She would like to get her permit to carry in that state. They took the class-paid their fees-and left with SIGNED and DATED certificates. My certificate is accepted as proof of training and their permit is available at age 18.


Speaking as myself, I let my students sit through my class as many times as they'd like(free until renewal time). If she were my student and wanted to take the class at 19, great. She'll get a signed and dated certificate. If she wants to come back at 20 and do it again, more power to her, with no extra cost.

Dingdingdingding. Utterly ethical; no issues at all. Given that you're, well, you, I'm utterly and totally unsurprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:19 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Blued Steel wrote:
Speaking as myself. Why are you openly discussing something which someone was clearly asking in confidence?
Multiple reasons.

I think those qualify more as rationalizations than as reasons.
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Quote:
Did you seek permission from those involved to discuss a private issue in open forum at another site?
Nope. I don't ask the day care kiddies for, well, anything. Nor did I ask their permission to blog about it, and, you bet, I'm doing that, too.

In other words, you applied for admission into a private discussion group under the understanding that you would abide by the rules of that group, then you willfully violated those rules.

If you found that abiding by those rules to be too much of burden, the proper response would have been to resign.

The only exception I can think of would be if the discussions within that group had crossed into illegality. Which, admittedly, this may have. The proper response to criminal acts, though, would have been to bring it to the attention of the authorities, not to carp about it to us.

I understand your point regarding the lack of ethics that the instructor has displayed in this matter. I also understand the lack of ethics that you have displayed in posting this.

Do you make regular practice of violating confidences, or was this a one-time thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:57 am 
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jdege wrote:
In other words, you applied for admission into a private discussion group under the understanding that you would abide by the rules of that group, then you willfully violated those rules.?

Not at all; I made no such undertaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:57 am 
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princewally wrote:
In the interest of fairness, if the question is taken from a restricted forum and posted publicly, can we post the resolution, too?
Absolutely. You could also, if you'd like, post the place where somebody over at the day care site said: "Are you friggin' kidding? You're talking about engaging in fraud? Precisely what kind of moron are you?" except that, of course, nobody over at the day care site said that.

And, yup, taking the guy's word (which I'm certainly willing to do in a hypo, although not in real life, necessarily), no crime was committed, but only seriously contemplated. That said, I don't think it's a stretch to guess that a firearms instructor who is so unclear about what fraud is might not be as familiar as he should be with more complex legal issues.

As I've said, repeatedly, the BCA, despite getting a nice chunk of change every time somebody pays to apply for a permit, is doing a lousy job. This is just one example; there are others.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:40 am 
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Let me change the sitation very slightly and see if it helps bring this into perspective for me. I'm not an instructor, just a 20+ year veteran as a business executive.

Someone wants me to provide them a signed undated document that at some point they will date and pass as a current proof of whatever it was I was signing in the first place some time ago.

Simply put, no. in more detail, sorry no. In final form, you want me to participate in fraud, absolutely not.

If you look at it on a macro scale this has little to do with instructing and alot to do with the lack of ethical fiber and legal understanding of this person. I don't care who he is, who he is approved by, what web site he is on or where he posted whatever. The guy is not a professional or maybe is just not the brightest bulb in the room, either way he should not be certifying anybody for anything. To even have to ask the question tells me all I need to know about him.


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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:01 am 
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The aforementioned question was ENTIRELY a hypothetical question. I do know what fraud is joel, and at no time was it being entertained. You can believe what you like about the other forum and it's members and their lack of concern. I will then tell you that I received no less than 6 phone calls addressing that very question from other instructors from that other forum. I have NEVER and I will NEVER issue a certificate without my signature and date. That's it, that's all there is, simple and TRUE. I have been a member here since July 2007 and hope to continue.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:10 am 
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Context makes all the difference. In a private setting among peers, a question was asked. He's trying to determine what should be on the certificate to specifically comply with the law and make sure it's not used to get a permit in MN.

The overwhelming response (including respected members of this board): I wouldn't issue a certificate without a date. That's the wrong way to solve this problem.

The Certificate is evidence that this student completed training that satisfies MN Statute 624.714. Nothing else. The rest of the issuing criteria are in the hands of the sheriff. You know, like criminal history, age, citizenship status, etc...

The resolution: Student wanted certification of training which would be valid for a permit in another state where her age would be within the issuing guidelines. Certificate issued with date. (which Joel or his "whistle blower" KNEW before posting this as it's in the thread)

Sam is owed an apology. Joel has posted a carefully slanted hypothetical and called this man names. He's posted as evidence a link to a MCPPA instructors only section so the people commenting, aside from those with access to that section have only a slanted introduction and damnation to go on.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:20 am 
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I don't know Sam, have never met him, or Joel for that matter. But the issue appears to be you have a certified instructor that is asking if it is OK to provide a non-dated certificate.

I'm sorry if I miss the point but if you have to ask that question in the first place maybe you should not be instructing people on the laws, practices and use of carrying a firearm.


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