I sent this PM to Andrew, and on second thought decided to post it here as my swine song.

«I frankly don't understand your attitude toward me. For someone who believes, as you must, in personal rights and freedoms, you don't allow for my choosing not to engage co-workers in political/firearms discussions?

I work for a strict German company. If any coworker so much as says to the mgt that I was "bugging" them about firearms, or "pressing the cc right" or even just discussing it. I would probably lose my 25 year career, my home, and everything else I own. In fact one of the two bozos is an American, but has been stationed in Germany, speaks German fluently, and has a pipeline to the German senior mgt!

That is simply a risk I cannot take to try to convince two bozos to change their mind. We don't discuss Obama, OJ, politics, religion, capital punishment, abortion, or any other hot button issue. We are trying to run a business with 271,000 worldwide employees of many cultures and backgrounds in free nations, commie nations, and dictatorships.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and I'd rather quietly carry my pistol and go about my business than be branded a rabble rouser fanatic. Sometimes silence is golden and in my workplace, that is the case.

Getting on my case for refusing to engage two bozos at work was unnecessary, accomplished nothing but to force me to leave the forum where the message is abundantly clear that I am not wanted.

Good luck with the forum. »

Rodentman,

You can't let one person's dissenting opinion from yours stop you from doing things.

Yes, I do see your point, and if not coming back is your choice, so be it.

Don't let the man get you down.


MM

Well, this one's easy, actually. Andrew's wrong, and so are you.

Whether or not to get involved in gun discussions at all in a given work situation is a call that the individual gets to make. For some folks, it's a safe bet; for others, it can lead to termination -- I know a guy who inquired as to whether or not his company was going to violate the parking lot laws, and his position magically disappeared. (Could he have sued the company? Absolutely. He might even, years later, have won and gotten sufficient punitives to make it worthwhile. He might also have won the lottery with the bucks he saved on lattes on the way into work for the next few weeks while he was job hunting.)

Your job; your call. Easy.

You don't want to hang around here and take criticism? That's definitely okay, whether or not it's fair. But that is the choice -- you're not being forced to leave the Forum. As a theoretical matter, there's only one person who can do that (technically, Andrew, Greg, Seth, and maybe a few others can lock anybody -- including me -- out, but if they do it, they do it on my authority), and I didn't do that. Nor, for that matter, have I been tempted.

So you're wrong, too. Leave if you want to, but do yourself a favor and don't claim you've been forced to when you haven't; that kind of misrepresentation invites bad karma.

And if you think Andrew's mean, or I am -- both of which are often true -- wait'll you meet Bad Karma.

I just rec'd a PM from Andrew.

Best of luck with the forum.

Edited to add that I withdraw the comment that I was "forced" out. I leave of my own free will.

I find I must apologize: I intended to respond publicly to Rodentman, but instead typed my response in a PM. To right this wrong, here's what I sent:

----------------------

You can change history all you want, but your posts are there in black and white: the guy asked about home defense with firearms, and you decided to refuse to discuss that issue because he wasn't on board with right to carry.




Then there's where you made fun of someone for caring about gun safety:
http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... 884#134884



And there's this:




Sorry, but the attitude is coming from you.

We are a fairly cohesive and understanding group, but part of that cohesion centers around two major tenets: gun safety and projecting a positive impression of carry permit holders.

You did the opposite of both of those, repeatedly, and came here and bragged about it. You seemed shocked when you didn't get kudos.

If you can't handle being disagreed with on an Internet forum, you might need to toughen up a bit. No one is "forcing" you to leave. No one is refusing to "allow" you your decisions. You came looking for praise for a trio of bonehead moves, and got criticism instead.

You can skulk away, or stay and learn. Your choice. But if your attitude and patience are as you portray them here, I have some grave worries about you carrying a loaded gun.

OK well now that we're public: (I get confused with nested quotes, so...)

« the guy asked about home defense with firearms, and you decided to refuse to discuss that issue because he wasn't on board with right to carry. »

Correct. That was my choice and I defend it. Also, no one here but me knows this person and in the context of his personality, mine, and our work relationship, I felt it was the right choice. I didn't want to suggest a PD firearm for him because frankly I am not an expert and I didn't want him to hold me responsible if he were uncomfortable with it. FWIW I also declined to recommend a diamond (something I know quite a bit about) for his fiancee either. He's just the kind of guy who would find something wrong with it, or the "same thing" at a better price and I'd never hear the end of it.

Now at the gund shop: I didn't make fun of someone "concerned about gun safety." He was beligerant and smarting off in a snide manner about my "pointing the gun at him."

In the process of examining a pistol (mag out, slide back) the muzzle will get pointed all over the place. I even pointed it in my face as I looked down the barrel. I did NOT "point" the gun at the man. In fact, the 2 clerks at the store were rather taken aback by his comment and didn't advise me to change what I was doing in looking at the pistol. In fact the next ime I went there, the guys said don't point any guns at people and starting laughing.

« I found a rubber band shooter in a catalog and cut the ad out for him. I told him to use light loads.»

A little humor, no? He thought it was funny and said, lightheartedly, that he may be better off with something like that. He really thinks he has a problem with his temper and doubts his self control with a handgun.

How do these 3 comments give me an "attitude?" They may not be how Andrew, Joel, or anyone else would have handled the matters, but it's a case I think of "you had to be there."

I admit I have a rather thin skin on forums, but I don't think I should have to walk on eggshells either.

I will, I guess, limit my comments to questions (I just got a used reloading press, scale, trimmer, etc that I need advice with), facts about FTF's and other direct handgun experiences, but leave out any "stories."

Frankly I don't think I deserved the invective I received but, as a Singapore caning, it gets a message across.

<nitpick mode on>
I keep seeing people post, hearing it day to day conversations and seeing in the media, about how we've had carry in MN for 5 years, when we've actually had it much longer than that. I beieve we've had it since 1975 and before that no permit was even required.

The 2003 law 'changed' the carry law to shall-issue from may-issue but the law existed before that, albeit with fewer permit holders.

I'm amazed at how many people I've talked to who think the ability to carry a firearm at all in MN was just passed in 2003. Then again, many of those same people thought the assualt weapons ban meant machine guns. That's a different rant for a different time.
</nitpick mode>

+2

I pretty much read Rodentman's first post the same way Andrew did. It wasn't until he clarified that the person in question was "one of THOSE guys" that hunts for flaws in any advice he's given, even when it's given by experts. I probably would have clammed up, too...

I live in the wild west, though. Chanhassen. Seriously, it's crazy out here... This one time...a few years ago...this guy I know got his mailbox smashed with a pumpkin right after Halloween by some teenagers. You know what he did about it? Yup. Bought a new mailbox. A green one. It's nutty out here...

Stick around, Rodentman. I've got lots more wild west stories...

Dirk

I tend to be an observer in most of these debates but I do notice a trend.

I see some of the attitude that is very common on the 'other' site drifting over here. Now I visit that other site also so I'm not saying it is all bad, but it is one of the major differences in the two sites. This one tends to have more depth to the debates and remains more issue focused with alot less cocky talk. The other is certainly more in your face and personal.

I'm going to back Andrew on this one, Rodentman's post can be perseved as a little over the top. With comments like 'cleaning someones clock' we would be better served without the playground chest pounding.

Just my take.

Well, back to the OP. Tab, I am glad you said nothing. Keep it to yourself. Not everyone is going to bend over and become a "believer" simply because you give them a mouthful. In fact, even if you are very friendly and courteous, chances are they are going to hold their opinions, if not strengthen them. You did the right thing, except for carrying at the PO. Just leave it (locked) in your Audi next time

+1

Ive been away for a few months now. Reading this shocks me, actually. I like this forum because its NOT full of this type of "cocky" ness.

I reread the thread (skimmed really).

Andrew, your original post was very sharp. Not saying it's wrong. I think there was another post from you in another thread that made me think "wow". Ahh yes, the "use the search" post. Again, not wrong, just sharp. Is something going on?

Rodentman, you will need to get some thicker skin if you are going to survive the internets. This forum, while it can get harsh, is a place where the majority can have a heated discussion and still be civil (and not run away).

Was this supposed to be "swan song?" I couldn't tell if it was supposed to be joke.

I thought the rubberband gun was funny. But, Andrew may be right about the rest of the quoted posts. BUT, we are reading one line comments about a conversation that could have lasted all day. We were not there.

Well, go back and read, don't skim.

Everything I said was well warranted.