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 Twin Cities bus incident - driver attacked 
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 Post subject: Twin Cities bus incident - driver attacked
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:35 am 
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Hey all, relatively new member (and new permit hodler) here.

Did anyone see the footage on the news last night showing a bus driver being attacked? I know, I was regrettably watching the news. That's a different topic.

I've been thinking about what I might have done had I been on that bus. The footage showed a couple of people trying (not very hard) to restrain this guy. What would you have done? What would I have done? A command to stop, and then being prepared to draw if the attacker didn't comply? Then what? Draw, force him off the bus and get the driver to just drive away, get some distance while calling police?

Seems like a pretty obvious threat to someone's life; the risk of great bodily harm seemed apparent to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:31 am 
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Yup. All that's true. And let's assume that I know that the bus driver is a terrific guy -- always buys his Mom flowers on Mother's Day, stops to pet dogs, helps little old ladies across the street . . .

Me, I'll think about what a nice guy he is as I'm exiting the bus and calling 911.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:22 am 
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joelr wrote:
Me, I'll think about what a nice guy he is as I'm exiting the bus and calling 911.


That's right. Remember the 4 pillars.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:36 am 
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I didn’t see the news report, but I tend to side with the guys above. You have to weigh all of your options on this one, including your morals. Would you rather save a guy and deal with the legal consequences. Or make sure you get out an emergency exit safely and not deal with the life-changing effects? Unless it meant my life (or my family’s) was in danger, I would tend to lean towards the (perhaps selfish?) option of getting the heck out of there.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:07 am 
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I think there's every reason to believe that defending the bus driver would be legally permissible.

sheepdog wrote:
joelr wrote:
Me, I'll think about what a nice guy he is as I'm exiting the bus and calling 911.


That's right. Remember the 4 pillars.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:10 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
I think there's every reason to believe that defending the bus driver would be legally permissible.


That doesn't mean it wouldn't be costly (financially and otherwise).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:11 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
I think there's every reason to believe that defending the bus driver would be legally permissible.
Yup. And I'd feel really, really bad about not taking advantage of that for his benefit as I was ducking behind some cover and calling 911.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:21 am 
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I would of helped, but without a gun. I couldn't run away.
Hopefully others would join in to and subdue the jerk
What a sad world we live in.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:36 am 
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Arm the drivers. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:37 am 
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JimC wrote:
I would of helped, but without a gun. I couldn't run away.
Hopefully others would join in to and subdue the jerk
What a sad world we live in.


But what do you do with your weapon if you are armed? Or did you mean you wouldn't have used it? The problem in my mind is if you join the fight without the intention of using your weapon, it certainly could escalate to the point where you have to. And while possibly legally permissible as mentioned earlier, it will still cost you. I agree that it is a sad world, that it would be so costly to those who try to help out. But it is what it is, and one may feel that the moral obligation to his family, which may be compromised by the resulting costs, outweighs the moral obligation to the stranger in need. Yes, sad. But true.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:43 am 
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JimC, this is a hard decision to make spur of the moment, BUT what if you had intervened and the BG gotten your weapon? What if your challenge caused him to pull a weapon? Would you have escolated the situation? What if he pulled, you pulled, and an innocent or two took some rounds?
I know it's alot of "what ifs", but all are possible, all costly one way or another..
That all said, I think (for me) first choice 911 from the bus, after that I'm not sure what I'd do.
Take care and be safe.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:20 am 
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joelr wrote:
Me, I'll think about what a nice guy he is as I'm exiting the bus and calling 911.

sheepdog wrote:
That's right. Remember the 4 pillars.

Andrew Rothman wrote:
I think there's every reason to believe that defending the bus driver would be legally permissible.

joelr wrote:
Yup. And I'd feel really, really bad about not taking advantage of that for his benefit as I was ducking behind some cover and calling 911.

I'm not arguing for or against that choice. I'm correcting the mistaken implication of sheepdog's comment.

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 Post subject: Still not sure what I'd do
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:51 am 
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Thanks for the input. Good food for thought. I've been thinking about it off and on this morning. Do I have a greater responsibility for the safety of others as I carry a tool that might be used to defend them? I certainly have a responsibilty to protect my family, and carrying gives me another tool to be used (responsibly) to do so. I would think that I would have stepped to protect the driver even if I hadn't been carrying. If I had been carrying, what different actions might I have chosen than if I had not been?

As a new permit holder and carrier, I find myself playing out these hypotheticals in my mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Good. Thinking things through and talking them out here is, in my strongly-held opinion, a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Still not sure what I'd do
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:07 pm 
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rteam2 wrote:
Do I have a greater responsibility for the safety of others as I carry a tool that might be used to defend them?


You don't have any greater responsibilities than you did before. It in no way makes you law enforcement of any kind.

Stepping in is your choice, and it's not an easy choice, but it's not a responsibility.

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