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 Public opinion consequences of refusing to talk to the media 
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:02 pm 
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I give both of those options, followed by the failsafe, adrenaline soaked, easy to remember phrase: "Lawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyer"

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:12 pm 
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From our very own reference section.....
http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... php?t=9870


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:02 pm 
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I will again play devils advocate, because I think people should consider both sides of any topic, before coming to a conclusion, especially one that could have direct implications in how the rest of your life ends up ;)


Many people have said to take Duanes advice because he is a lawyer, trying to get more people to use their services (you're telling me a TV salesman will strongly suggest you should buy bigger TVs and more often?!?).


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Posted by Bren

Well, let's put that video in perspective. Dragoon and I have actually done the job. Prof. Duane? Looks like a guy who has spent his entire legal career teaching, rather than practicing, and who has no experience in criminal law. here's his resume: http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/facul ... /duane.cfm

Even as a professor, he teaches: Trial Practice, Evidence, Advanced Evidence, Civil Procedure, Professional Responsibility, Remedies - not criminal law.

What I see on there, as far as actual practice as an attorney, is 4 years at Connors and Vilardo, in Buffalo, NY. Their practice areas include: "Business Litigation, Representation of Professionals, Personal Injury, Civil Litigation, White Collar Investigation, Appeals, Case Studies" - http://www.connors-vilardo.com/what%20we%20do.htm

Prof. Duane may be fine, but I'm not too impressed with his background in either constitutional law or criminal law.

Second, the 5th Amendment is about being a witness AGAINST yourself, which is the whole point of what we are saying. First, know enough to be a witness FOR yourself, not against yourself. Second, it is rarely necessary for you to be a witness against yourself in order to be charged, or even convicted - most people who get convicted by a jury haven't made a statement against themselves and don't testify at trial. However, in some states it is a legal requirement that you present some evidence of your justification in order to be considered justified in a shooting - just as a matter of common sense, when the law requires you to "believe you are in imminent danger of death or serious injury" (generic example) how can the police say what you "believed," even if they want to support you, if you don't tell them?

I have, many times, seen cases of justified shootings where the police strongly supported the shooter (even to the point of, off the record, giving him a new gun to replace one put in evidence), but they can't make up evidence for you.


/DA

So just make an informed decision before 100% swallowing advice from one side of an issue or the other. Me? I keep my salt shaker with me at all times when taking in information ;)

And that GT thread has a ton of great information from both sides of the debate


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:51 am 
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Nords wrote:
Just don't let them coerce a full statement out of you. I think we've all seen episodes of Cops, and know cops will say whatever they can to get you to fess up. Everyone knows that.

But if you only give the basic facts and then zip it, what exact harm can come from it?


The harm comes from your mistaken impression that you will have the ability, in the moment, to "give the basic facts and then zip it," without inadvertently causing harm.

Have you watched Professor Duane's video?

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:09 am 
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Once you start talking...and it does not need to be about the event, it is very difficult to stop. See: siphon effect.

See: John Reid interrogation technique

And, I am not so sure I agree wtih Ayoob et al that say to identify witnesses. Unless I am reasonably certain they saw and heard what I saw and heard, a witness may be a bad choice.

Look at these two videos of the same incident....the camera does not lie, yet what you witnessed is quite different.

(Watch in sequence)

This one first (Hmmm...looks like murder by police)

http://www.realpolice.net/forums/police ... amera.html


This one second (Hmm...maybe not...maybe self-defense)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=user&v=lPEiRQoALcs

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:02 am 
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I bought a copy of the book "Essentials of the Ried Technique: Criminal Interrogation and Confessions" and I've been dragged through the criminal "justice" system due to a friends admission of what was an honest mistake (the only one who didn't think it was, apparently, was the district atty).

At this point the only time I will EVER talk to a police officer is to assert my rights; "I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any searches." No matter what weasel words they try to use, no matter what psychological wedges they try to drive in to my resistance, those are the words I will use.

No matter how sweet they make their questions sound, no matter how much they try to make it seem like they're on your side, they're not trying to be your friend. For me, the first thing I'll say when they approach me, no matter what the context, no matter what I've seen or heard, I'm not saying anything but "I need to speak to my attorney and I do not consent to any search."

It might cost me a little in the short run to have representation, but it will save me in the long run.

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Last edited by Binky .357 on Thu May 28, 2009 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Binky .357 wrote:
I bought a copy of the book "Essentials of the Ried Technique: Criminal Interrogation and Confessions" and I've been dragged through the criminal "justice" system due to a friends admission of what was an honest mistake (the only one who didn't, apparently, was the district atty).

At this point the only time I will EVER talk to a police officer is to assert my rights; "I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any searches." No matter what weasel words they try to use, no matter what psychological wedges they try to drive in to my resistance, those are the words I will use.

No matter how sweet they make their questions sound, no matter how much they try to make it seem like they're on your side, they're not trying to be your friend. For me, the first thing I'll say when they approach me, no matter what the context, no matter what I've seen or heard, I'm not saying anything but "I need to speak to my attorney and I do not consent to any search."

It might cost me a little in the short run to have representation, but it will save me in the long run.


It's a shame you had to come to that conclusion through unfortunate personal experience. As for myself, I aim to learn from history, and from other's living personal testimony to their own mistakes. :)

I'll echo Binky's modus operandi.

Unfortunately, it seems Nords will have to learn it the hard way, should his day ever come. For the people who think they know better, I guess that's fine. The rest of us need to be constantly reminded of why we ought not to talk to the police. I just hope that in Nords future circumstance (should it ever occur), that it doesn't involve death or the separation of family members dear to his heart. :(

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:39 pm 
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Nords wrote:
And that GT thread has a ton of great information from both sides of the debate


Sorry, but I for one am gonna have a hard time agreeing with either side of a "debate" at Glock Talk, especially since Eddie promptly locks any threads regarding what we'd call "Isolated Incidents" and shortly thereafter bans the poster of such "Cop Bashing".

Glock Talk is far from being an unbiased source...

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:12 pm 
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Hey, whatever information I can ingest before making an informed decision, I will. Be it from Binky, or the Duane video, cops, biased posters on GT, news articles, etc.

I'd much rather look at it all, and go from there, than only hear one side of an issue and cling to it, just 'cuz'.



So as I stated before a few times ... what I've concluded was very similar to what Andrew and Ayoob say to do. Give just those basic details/facts before shutting up and asking for that lawyer.

(I'm feeling that people think I will be giving a full verbal statement right there at the scene :?: Which obviously is not the thing to do.)


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:14 pm 
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I've read that little list a hundred times and heard it too. But even right now with zero stress I can't recall it.

All I know is "LAWYER".

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Speaking to anyone after such an incident is done at your own peril. If you think it best, than so be it. But do realize that you have precisely no idea what that person's true agenda is. Maybe they think you are innocent, maybe they think you are a low down murdering thug who deserves to be made an example of.

I see remarkably few reasons to bet on the positive side of that, when taking the conventional wisdom of shutting your mouth, and letting somebody who has not just defended their own life do the thinking for you (your lawyer), will almost certainly provide you with a better result.

Media can be trusted no further than police, and police can't be trusted when you are a suspect. You have no possible way of knowing how they will interpret what you say, and use that either for or against you.

Your butt will probably be in jail for a few days regardless. I wouldn't let that determine what I say to the cops/media. We aren't talking about a few days here, we are talking about a prison term up to and including your entire remaining life. Don't lose sight of the big picture.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:11 pm 
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+1 EJSG19.

Let's not lose sight of an important truth, guys- the other factor is where TSHTF. In outstate MN, you may (though I'd have to recommend against it unless the responding deputy is also your brother) be able to avoid a night or two in jail. In the Metro, particularly in Minneapolis, you are going to be arrested. End of story. As EJSG19 puts it, though, look at the big picture. Talk a little to try and avoid a night in the pokey, and you've got a better-than-average chance of talking yourself into a long stay as a guest of the state.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:12 pm 
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gunflint wrote:
I can't recall one instance in my life where keeping my mouth shut got me into trouble. I can recall many times talking myself into misery.


Wise words indeed......I don't see any inherent risk in keeping completely quiet. Keep any comments to name, rank, and serial number. DEMAND THAT YOUR ATTORNEY BE PRESENT BEFORE ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS. The notion of talking to the press gives me chills. I won't even read the Strib much less talk to them. Wouldn't talk to any other media either. Just my take on the subject.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:49 pm 
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"I'm not granting any interviews, I'm not consenting to any searches; chat with my attorney."

Period.

End of conversation.

Is this too subtle for you? :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 5:15 pm 
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I actually go so far as to quiz my wife on occasion, "If I'm ever involved in a DGU and you're present, what do you say to the cops?" The answer, of course, is nothing, except that "My husband and and I will require our lawyer to be present before we make any statements".

I also have warned her that if something does happen, God forbid, that I'm probably going to jail and nothing she says or does is going to stop that from happening, so she might as well clam up.

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