Why can't a Pro Gun lawyer test the law and defend himself????? We have several here on the board. What about it lawyers??

Because why in the world do we want to bring awareness to the signage issue?

I like it very much the way it is, and a loss could hurt. A lot.

-Mark

Because it still costs money . . . . while a dollar may be a bit dearer to the desperately poor among us (like me) than to lawyer folk. . . I have no doubt that they hold their dollars somewhat dear.

In any case, MOA's signs are illegal 8 ways to Sunday, laughable, and even if they were spot on with the law it wouldnt' stop a mall ninja from asking you to take your piece and leave which would have the force of law behind it, just like if you ignored the current travesties of signage and a mall ninja asked you to take your piece and leave. So we can pick a fight over the signage and you will still be asked to leave if you are open carrying or printing horribly, or we can leave it alone and you will still be asked to leave if you are open carrying or printing horribly. So it boils down to, not just picking fights we can win, but picking fights that have a prize we want. Right now, I don't give a rats hindquarters about the signs and if they were compliant, I don't believe I'd invest any more attention or regard to them. I still have to leave if a mall cop asks me to & will do so peacefully. It is delusional to think that MOA will shrug their shoulders and allow open carry if we harrass them on this point.

Yup. The best we do with MOA is break even, and we're not even going to get that far. Could you imagine the TV media coverage of the court case? Mothers with strollers, kids playing on the rides...and a guy with a gun.

Nope. Not worth it.

-Mark

Well then we shouldn't talk about the MOA. Why do we debate the issue then?

I understand your reasoning for not fighting it.

I carry two or three guns for MOA carry and bring the wife with 1 or 2 of her's.

I don't care about any stinky signs

I agree, I do think this one is a lot of jaw chomping.

Is it obnoxious as hell that they continue to post against statute? Sure. Absolutely. Not that I would ever subtly flip off a sign on my way out of the mall...what, I was just scratching my head with my middle finger, like I sometimes do...

Is this a fight that we need to have? I don't think so.

What's the win on this one? There really isn't one. As I said on another issue, we might win the battle but lose the war. Win in court, lose in the media. And THAT could hurt.

-Mark

So everytime a Noob asks the question, the proper response is: "We don't talk about that"?

No, you tell them to Obey the Mall's rules and wishes.

No. The answer is, "It's stupid and without legal basis, but you'll avoid a ton of hassle if you just conceal."

Someone please refresh my memory as to what we absolutely need from the MOA that we either can't get elsewhere (i.e., a gun-friendly retailer) or online?

That said, why carry openly in a MOA commercial establishment where the place is most likely to be "cased" or "reconned" by a confederate before a robbery goes down? Are you concerned about being assaulted for no reason?

"Edina Police said some gang members relocated to places like Southdale since the Mall of America initiated curfew rules for adolescents." http://www.mnsun.com/articles/2009/03/11/news/ed12shootercharged.prt

"Over the weekend, officers from the Metro Gang Strike Force and various other agencies swept the Southdale Mall in Edina and the Mall of America in Bloomington." http://www.startribune.com/local/41423512.html

Chances are, your OC won't deter a robbery in a predominantly cash-transaction-driven environment where substantial payoffs are both high and likely (e.g., food vendors). Perps will either simply wait for you to leave, or, if the robbers are determined, you'll probably be the first to see a gun pointing in your OC face. If anything deters them, more probable than not, it will be the likelihood of not getting away without being intercepted by the time the perps have gotten to the 494/Cedar Ave. junction.

It seems to me that the place to OC is in a setting where a lying-in-wait-styled ambush is more likely to occur. Typically, this is where the potential of someone getting close to you without your noticing it is less likely than it is in a crowded retail environment where a gun-grab could more easily occur. In this case, an ambush may be discouraged by OC, unless you dress and act like Big Daddy Warbucks (i.e., flaunting your wealth with those cuff links that cost more than some people's cars), in which case Pavlov takes over, regardless of that "don't-blame-the-victim-in-the-low-cut-dress" crap.

Moreover, in a typical ambush setting, one doesn't want the complication of clearing a covering garment while drawing a handgun. In such situations, e.g., dark parking lots in the MPLS warehouse district, I have discreetly moved my weapon from my CC holster to an external pocket that I could shoot through if necessary. Living in an urban/suburban environment, I never OC. It defeats the advantage of surprise when you want or need it, and it scares the neighbors.

Someone refresh my memory: when was the last time that an open carrying permit holder was assaulted by a criminal?





<crickets>

eek! Makes me wonder how the sights work in such a set up!

Yuppers. One of those nasty urban legends that went from a "what if" into our fears.

-Mark

Certainly no worse than in the comparatively more secure confines of my holster. Unfortunately, my gun is too big for discreet and convenient pocket-holster carry.

If you're shooting through a pocket it's because your assailant ambushed you from so close of a vantage point that drawing and sighting is moot. Moreover, it beats blowing your thigh off by trying to shoot through your holster. I discreetly move the weapon into a pocket, as Joel suggested in his book, in order to avoid the youtube cell phone video of police intercepting me due to a "man with a gun" call. What was your point?