I am reading Joel's book for the AACFI 2nd edition and it was saying that if you have to draw your weapon on someone (obviously fearing GBH or death) that you should be the first to call 911 even if you didn't have to use lethal force.

My question is, what do I tell them? The "lawyer, I do not consent to any search" is pretty burned in at this point, but if you have to call 911, you have to tell them something.

What do you say?

Can you give me some examples on what the phone call should sound like, and if Joel wants to respond could he tell me what the phone call from "Bob" (having to draw on the tire iron guy), should have sounded like?

Thanks.

Correct. It's called "the race to the courthouse", and I'll let a few of our lawyer friends here fill in the blanks on it. It is critically important. The last thing you need is for the perp to call the police and report that YOU pointed the gun at them.

Why will I wait for a lawyer to jump in? Because you're going to get a different opinion from everybody.

-Mark

I teach that, lets say you are at the MOA and a guy tries mugging you in the parking ramp. You draw you gun and the bg runs away. Call and report that a guy (give description) try to mug you and ran (the direction he went) away. I recommend not saying that you drew your firearm or volunteering any info of what you may have done to make the guy run away. Just state that there was an attempt to mug you and describe the bg's actions. Now if the bg calls in that you pulled a gun on him they may have an idea why he might have said that.

I also will be interested in seeing what a lawyer's opinion would be on this matter. However, I'm a little skittish about the above scenario and NOT telling the police/911 that you drew your firearm and that the bad guy ran away. It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that Minnesota has no 'brandishing' law so you wouldn't be admitting to a crime of 'Brandishing' by telling them you drew your firearm. I DON'T think you have to tell them you drew your firearm and pointed it at the bad guy. If you drew your firearm and the bad guy ran away that is what I would say happened. If you say your pointed the gun at the guy THEN you are admitting to (depending on how it goes) a potential criminal act. The other reason I feel that way about not telling the police/911 I drew my firearm is that you are leaving out an important detail of the encounter. In my mind, the police might take the fact that you left that detail out as a negative. If the bad guy does report the incident and says you drew your gun and you leave that part out it may reflect bad on you. Basically, YOU want to be the first one to report the incident. You don't want to have to be the one on the defensive if possible. If you felt you were at the point that you were in fear of GBH or death and you drew you've done nothing wrong at that point IMHO. However, just because you've drawn doesn't mean you HAVE to shoot if the threat suddenly goes away before you shoot. So, saying you had the encounter and you felt in fear of GBH or death so you drew your firearm shouldn't by itself be a bad thing. I might be reaching here but that's my thought on it. I'll wait with interest at what others have to say on the matter.

I would not say "I drew a weapon" over the air (which is essentially what a cell phone does) . . . If the PD wants to send an officer by the location to take a report, you can tell the officer all about it in person. More likely the dispatcher will suggest you go to the nearest sub-station or precinct and fill out a report there & you can include whatever relevant details. In any case, it is easy for PD's to louse up facts and use the fact that your gun was drawn while a crime was attempted as an excuse to take your gun into evidence never mind you weren't the one attempting the crime, your gun was involved in a crime and now it is evidence, for them to knock the rear sight off of, play with, plant on a dead Hmong kid . .. that sort of thing. Maybe I am a little extra cautious with police contact, maybe I have been living in Minneapolis too long . .. but while the race to the courthouse is important, I don't think I'd tell an officer that I drew unless he asked dirrectly "why did the perp chose to run" and even then, I'd prefer not to answer that without my lawyers advice first and VERY certainly not over the air*. Additionally, right after the fact you have adreniline & the natural reaction is to babble, say things that can bite you either in the police report or the media .. . you get the call in first, you won the race. Take some time to breathe before you do any interviews whether that is waiting for the cop to come to you or on the drive to the cop shop . . . or after having a counseling session with your counselor.




* just because you have an expectation of privacy, doesn't mean you really have privacy.

I'd rather be the first one to mention the gun and also that I am a licensed permit holder and drew because I felt I was in danger. Better for the responding officer to know that too.

I read another popular book on MN Carry laws (can't remember the name as I loaned it to my brother in-law). It has a tear out section with a lawyer's card and 2 little sections that explicitly tell you what to do when you use your weapon and when you "expose" your weapon. They seem reasonable:

Call 911 and say:

[A]My name is ___ and I need to report ____(an attack, possible attack) at ___(address)
[B]The individual (give a brief description) and (ran off/ drove off, etc)
[C]I do have a permit to carry a firearm, and did expose my firearm to the attacker, but I did not use it.
[D]I've called my attorney and he'll contact you to schedule time to make a statement. Here is my phone number.
[E]Lastly, they say to answer any questions related to the attacker or your contact info, but do not answer questions about the incident/your actions and if they persist, hang up.

I know this little card was reviewed by an attorney that defends these cases. It seems reasonable that you are stating facts, but not giving much detail about your actions.

I personally would use the form "I need police at [address]. I was attacked by ____ (number of people and brief description) and defended myself, and they have [run/driven/bicycled/etc] in [direction]."

For anything more complicated than that I would just say "we need police at [address], there has been a [robbery/beating/whatever]."

If you stop there, you will be labeled as an "uncooperative caller" by the dispatcher, and there is a greater chance of the responding officers being a little less sympathetic.

I'm just sayin'...

Those Bicycle BG are ruthless!

Not to say that it wouldn't happen but wouldn't a BG be rather stupid to call the PD and report that he was exposed to a man with a gun when his intent was to do the gun holder harm? Wouldn't the dispatcher ask for details as to why he was "exposed". Kind of like the drug dealer that called the cops on a guy that just ripped off his stash.. Then wanted his stash back if the PD catches him.

True if the BG was really doing (or going to do) bad things. How about the Treptow case? Who is really the "BG" in that situation if you were the responding LEO?

With two additions, this is essentially what I teach (IAAL).
(1). Give the dispatcher your ATTORNEY'S telephone number, not your's.
(2). new Point[F] If you feel uncomfortable answering further questions, such as described in point [E], just hang up. Should the police call back, refer them DIRECTLY to your attorney.

[b]Give them OBJECTIVE FACTS only: Who, What, Where, When. Any subjective questions about WHY or your relationship to the attacker, motivations, etc. are for your attorney to deal with. You can always HANG UP. If you do, immediately contact your attorney for further specific instructions.

IANAL, and he is, and, well: yup. More later.

I've had to do it before... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9819&p=116463

I basically tried to keep it brief and just explain why I felt the need to draw my weapon. I think it's safe to say that you felt physically threatened, and that your drew your weapon and wanted to report that to the police.

In some regards, if you don't let the authorities know what happened you can be singled out as the "bad guy".