Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:47 pm

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? 
Author Message
 Post subject: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:04 pm 
Member

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:20 pm
Posts: 46
So assuming we are correct about TCF Stadium and Mall of America can not ban you.

From a legal standpoint, assuming that they can't ban/tresspass you for carrying -
What does normal tresspass law say about them telling you to leave because, well, they just want you to leave.

Have always wondered about this?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:55 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:39 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Mankato Area
Most of your questions can be answered by this post:
http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:38 am 
Member

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:20 pm
Posts: 46
Dee wrote:
Most of your questions can be answered by this post:
http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434


Unless I missed something in the thread, that is talking about the violating the statues and trespass for places that can post and/or inform you.

The examples I gave are exemptions to the trespass section of 624.714 (4-Public/Private and 6-Landlord)

So the question was, if we are not in statutory violation of 624 - is there other trespass statues that apply?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:33 am 
Senior Member

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 144
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/sta ... &year=2006

609.605 TRESPASS.
Subdivision 1. Misdemeanor. (a) The following terms have the meanings given them for
purposes of this section.
(i) "Premises" means real property and any appurtenant building or structure.
(ii) "Dwelling" means the building or part of a building used by an individual as a place of
residence on either a full-time or a part-time basis. A dwelling may be part of a multidwelling or
multipurpose building, or a manufactured home as defined in section 168.011, subdivision 8.
(iii) "Construction site" means the site of the construction, alteration, painting, or repair
of a building or structure.
(iv) "Owner or lawful possessor," as used in paragraph (b), clause (9), means the person on
whose behalf a building or dwelling is being constructed, altered, painted, or repaired and the
general contractor or subcontractor engaged in that work.
(v) "Posted," as used:
(A) in clause (9), means the placement of a sign at least 11 inches square in a conspicuous
place on the exterior of the building that is under construction, alteration, or repair, and additional
signs in at least two conspicuous places for each ten acres being protected. The sign must carry an
appropriate notice and the name of the person giving the notice, followed by the word "owner"
if the person giving the notice is the holder of legal title to the land on which the construction
site is located or by the word "occupant" if the person giving the notice is not the holder of legal
title but is a lawful occupant of the land; and
(B) in clause (10), means the placement of signs that:
(I) state "no trespassing" or similar terms;
(II) display letters at least two inches high;
(III) state that Minnesota law prohibits trespassing on the property; and
(IV) are posted in a conspicuous place and at intervals of 500 feet or less.
(vi) "Business licensee," as used in paragraph (b), clause (9), includes a representative of a
building trades labor or management organization.
(vii) "Building" has the meaning given in section 609.581, subdivision 2.
(b) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person intentionally:
(1) permits domestic animals or fowls under the actor's control to go on the land of another
within a city;
(2) interferes unlawfully with a monument, sign, or pointer erected or marked to designate a
point of a boundary, line or a political subdivision, or of a tract of land;
(3) trespasses on the premises of another and, without claim of right, refuses to depart from
the premises on demand of the lawful possessor;
(4) occupies or enters the dwelling or locked or posted building of another, without claim
of right or consent of the owner or the consent of one who has the right to give consent, except
in an emergency situation;
(5) enters the premises of another with intent to take or injure any fruit, fruit trees, or
vegetables growing on the premises, without the permission of the owner or occupant;
(6) enters or is found on the premises of a public or private cemetery without authorization
during hours the cemetery is posted as closed to the public;
(7) returns to the property of another with the intent to abuse, disturb, or cause distress in or
threaten another, after being told to leave the property and not to return, if the actor is without
claim of right to the property or consent of one with authority to consent;
(8) returns to the property of another within one year after being told to leave the property
and not to return, if the actor is without claim of right to the property or consent of one with
authority to consent;
(9) enters the locked or posted construction site of another without the consent of the owner
or lawful possessor, unless the person is a business licensee; or
(10) enters the locked or posted aggregate mining site of another without the consent of the
owner or lawful possessor, unless the person is a business licensee.
Subd. 2. Gross misdemeanor. Whoever trespasses upon the grounds of a facility providing
emergency shelter services for battered women, as defined under section 611A.31, subdivision 3,
or of a facility providing transitional housing for battered women and their children, without claim
of right or consent of one who has right to give consent, and refuses to depart from the grounds of
the facility on demand of one who has right to give consent, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.
Subd. 3.[Repealed, 1993 c 326 art 2 s 34]
Subd. 4. Trespasses on school property. (a) It is a misdemeanor for a person to enter or be
found in a public or nonpublic elementary, middle, or secondary school building unless the person:
(1) is an enrolled student in, a parent or guardian of an enrolled student in, or an employee of
the school or school district;
(2) has permission or an invitation from a school official to be in the building;
(3) is attending a school event, class, or meeting to which the person, the public, or a
student's family is invited; or
(4) has reported the person's presence in the school building in the manner required for
visitors to the school.
(b) It is a misdemeanor for a person to be on the roof of a public or nonpublic elementary,
middle, or secondary school building unless the person has permission from a school official to be
on the roof of the building.
(c) It is a gross misdemeanor for a group of three or more persons to enter or be found in a
public or nonpublic elementary, middle, or secondary school building unless one of the persons:
(1) is an enrolled student in, a parent or guardian of an enrolled student in, or an employee of
the school or school district;
(2) has permission or an invitation from a school official to be in the building;
(3) is attending a school event, class, or meeting to which the person, the public, or a
student's family is invited; or
(4) has reported the person's presence in the school building in the manner required for
visitors to the school.
(d) It is a misdemeanor for a person to enter or be found on school property within one year
after being told by the school principal or the principal's designee to leave the property and not to
return, unless the principal or the principal's designee has given the person permission to return
to the property. As used in this paragraph, "school property" has the meaning given in section
152.01, subdivision 14a, clauses (1) and (3).
(e) A school principal or a school employee designated by the school principal to maintain
order on school property, who has reasonable cause to believe that a person is violating this
subdivision may detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable period of time pending
the arrival of a peace officer. A school principal or designated school employee is not civilly or
criminally liable for any action authorized under this paragraph if the person's action is based
on reasonable cause.
(f) A peace officer may arrest a person without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to
believe the person violated this subdivision within the preceding four hours. The arrest may be
made even though the violation did not occur in the peace officer's presence.
Subd. 5. Certain trespass on agricultural land. (a) A person is guilty of a gross
misdemeanor if the person enters the posted premises of another on which cattle, bison, sheep,
goats, swine, horses, poultry, farmed cervidae, farmed ratitae, aquaculture stock, or other species
of domestic animals for commercial production are kept, without the consent of the owner or
lawful occupant of the land.
(b) "Domestic animal," for purposes of this section, has the meaning given in section 609.599.
(c) "Posted," as used in paragraph (a), means the placement of a sign at least 11 inches
square in a conspicuous place at each roadway entry to the premises. The sign must provide
notice of a biosecurity area and wording such as: "Biosecurity measures are in force. No entrance
beyond this point without authorization." The sign may also contain a telephone number or
a location for obtaining such authorization.
(d) The provisions of this subdivision do not apply to employees or agents of the state or
county when serving in a regulatory capacity and conducting an inspection on posted premises
where domestic animals are kept.
History: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.605; 1971 c 23 s 62; 1973 c 123 art 5 s 7; 1976 c 251 s 1;
1978 c 512 s 1; 1981 c 365 s 9; 1982 c 408 s 2; 1985 c 159 s 2; 1986 c 444; 1987 c 307 s 3; 1989
c 5 s 9; 1989 c 261 s 5; 1990 c 426 art 1 s 54; 1993 c 326 art 1 s 14; art 2 s 13; art 4 s 32; 1993 c
366 s 13; 1994 c 465 art 1 s 60; 1995 c 226 art 3 s 48; 2004 c 254 s 46; 2005 c 136 art 17 s 41,42

Copyright © 2006 by the Office of the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved.

Please direct all comments concerning issues or legislation
to your House Member or State Senator.

For Legislative Staff or for directions to the Capitol, visit the Contact Us page.

General questions or comments.

_________________
K. Paul
Semper Fi


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:13 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
rthib wrote:
Dee wrote:
Most of your questions can be answered by this post:
http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434


Unless I missed something in the thread, that is talking about the violating the statues and trespass for places that can post and/or inform you.

The examples I gave are exemptions to the trespass section of 624.714 (4-Public/Private and 6-Landlord)

So the question was, if we are not in statutory violation of 624 - is there other trespass statues that apply?

The statute is clear: the 624.714 mechanism is the only law that applies when telling a permit holder to leave a place he or she could otherwise go to because he or she is carrying, and state and subordinate governmental entities are forbidden to use even that.

But . . . the law doesn't (and shouldn't) give permit holders privileges that other folks don't have, except for the carrying-the-gun stuff. So my reading -- IANAL -- is that a: you can be trespassed for any other reason; b: the reason must be real, and not merely a lie to cover up the intent to bar you from carrying in such places, and that c: lotsa luck proving that it was a lie.

That any help?

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:05 am 
Senior Member

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:02 pm
Posts: 188
Location: Saint Paul
To expand on what Joel said, I've always been under the impression that you can be asked to leave and they don't even need a reason. They can simple ask you to leave be it the corner store, the MOA, the pizza place, someone's front lawn, etc. and if you refuse to leave and the cops are called and you still refuse to leave you are guilty of trespassing. I didn't think they even had to articulate a reason. Also, I've been under the impression that this is separate from anything to do with the permit to carry. As stated the permit law adds some additional twists to it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:44 am 
Wise Elder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:48 pm
Posts: 2782
Location: St. Paul
No. Section 624.714, subd. 17 expressly provides:
Quote:
(f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity.


If you are lawfully carrying, the establishment MUST prove that the reason for their request to leave is based on another legitimate ground. Otherwise, 624.714 must be complied with. Because it is the more specific statute (and the later enacted), 624.714 takes precedence.

_________________
President of AACFI, GOCRA, CCRN, and A2A


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:42 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
kimberman wrote:
No. Section 624.714, subd. 17 expressly provides:
Quote:
(f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity.


If you are lawfully carrying, the establishment MUST prove that the reason for their request to leave is based on another legitimate ground. Otherwise, 624.714 must be complied with. Because it is the more specific statute (and the later enacted), 624.714 takes precedence.

Which is why, I'm guessing, that we'll never see one of these cases go to trial. Somebody with a clean record won't want to have a trespassing conviction on it, so, in the pure case (permit holder told to leave solely because of the gun; doesn't; gets busted on real trespassing, with no testilying in the police report), the city attorney won't want to set the precedent that the law actually says what it means and means what it says, so it's likely to go away.

If it ever gets that far. Pretty hard to see how the pure case could come about in the first place, other than as a setup.

That said, some bad cops will go the "you may beat the charge, but you can't beat the ride" route.

All in all, it's just another argument for carrying discreetly.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:56 am 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:16 am
Posts: 364
Location: Minneapolis, MN
It's been said before, but bears repeating - the trespass provision of our carry law is probably the best we can expect to have.

In my home state of Nebraska, for example, you are guilty of a crime merely for entering a posted business while carrying- even if you don't see the sign, and the signs don't have a minimum size, etc. for visibility.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this. If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave! Don't go where you are not wanted, and you will go a long way towards staying out of trouble and avoiding conflict - which, as a permit holder, should be one of your primary concerns as you go through life.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:58 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Yup. It's the only one I know of -- Joe? Please check me on this -- that was designed to protect the innocent-of-anything-criminal permit holder.

And, speaking as an activist, I purely love it that there's been zero tickets issued. Hard for that antis to argue that a 100% effective law needs "improvement."

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:03 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:46 pm
Posts: 845
Location: Saint Paul
Erik_Pakieser wrote:
If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave!


Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:31 am 
Raving Moderate
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:46 pm
Posts: 1292
Location: Minneapolis
Traveler wrote:
Erik_Pakieser wrote:
If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave!


Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense.


No more calls, kids- we have a winner. :)

_________________
I'm liberal, pro-choice, and I carry a gun. Any questions?

My real name is Jeremiah (go figure). ;)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:36 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Jeremiah wrote:
Traveler wrote:
Erik_Pakieser wrote:
If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave!


Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense.


No more calls, kids- we have a winner. :)
Absolutely. And it's one that clearly has been followed at least almost all the time by permit holders -- we've yet to have as many as one of the petty violation tickets issued.

Looping back to places that can't ban but put up signs anyway (not private property, obviously), there's no point in arguing with, say, the Mall of America security ninjas. They don't know what the law is, and probably don't care, so if you carry discreetly, you don't have to either leave, or try to edumacate them and then leave, because they won't be educable.

(There is one place in the Mall where it's illegal for you to carry, by the way. Extra points to whoever names it first.)

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:36 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm
Posts: 1571
Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
Hmm...one place it is illegal. If I were to guess, and I am not 100% certain how you are defining "illegal", but perhaps the Metropolitan Learning Alliance...it is, I believe, a mall campus High School. But, I suppose you might be able to get permission....

I am not certain what other services might be there...for example, is there a post office at the mall, or perhaps a federal facility?

_________________
Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com
---
Contact us to schedule a class for you and your friends, and check our website for more information http://shootingsafely.com


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:55 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
phorvick wrote:
Hmm...one place it is illegal. If I were to guess, and I am not 100% certain how you are defining "illegal", but perhaps the Metropolitan Learning Alliance...it is, I believe, a mall campus High School.

One the nosie -- it's a school (and, in fact, the school that my older kid used to go to). I should have figured you'd get it. (Andrew wouldn't be eligible; we discussed that very issue way back when.)

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group