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Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? http://ellegon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14349 |
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Author: | rthib [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
So assuming we are correct about TCF Stadium and Mall of America can not ban you. From a legal standpoint, assuming that they can't ban/tresspass you for carrying - What does normal tresspass law say about them telling you to leave because, well, they just want you to leave. Have always wondered about this? |
Author: | Dee [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Most of your questions can be answered by this post: http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434 |
Author: | rthib [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Dee wrote: Most of your questions can be answered by this post: http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434 Unless I missed something in the thread, that is talking about the violating the statues and trespass for places that can post and/or inform you. The examples I gave are exemptions to the trespass section of 624.714 (4-Public/Private and 6-Landlord) So the question was, if we are not in statutory violation of 624 - is there other trespass statues that apply? |
Author: | kpaul [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/sta ... &year=2006 609.605 TRESPASS. Subdivision 1. Misdemeanor. (a) The following terms have the meanings given them for purposes of this section. (i) "Premises" means real property and any appurtenant building or structure. (ii) "Dwelling" means the building or part of a building used by an individual as a place of residence on either a full-time or a part-time basis. A dwelling may be part of a multidwelling or multipurpose building, or a manufactured home as defined in section 168.011, subdivision 8. (iii) "Construction site" means the site of the construction, alteration, painting, or repair of a building or structure. (iv) "Owner or lawful possessor," as used in paragraph (b), clause (9), means the person on whose behalf a building or dwelling is being constructed, altered, painted, or repaired and the general contractor or subcontractor engaged in that work. (v) "Posted," as used: (A) in clause (9), means the placement of a sign at least 11 inches square in a conspicuous place on the exterior of the building that is under construction, alteration, or repair, and additional signs in at least two conspicuous places for each ten acres being protected. The sign must carry an appropriate notice and the name of the person giving the notice, followed by the word "owner" if the person giving the notice is the holder of legal title to the land on which the construction site is located or by the word "occupant" if the person giving the notice is not the holder of legal title but is a lawful occupant of the land; and (B) in clause (10), means the placement of signs that: (I) state "no trespassing" or similar terms; (II) display letters at least two inches high; (III) state that Minnesota law prohibits trespassing on the property; and (IV) are posted in a conspicuous place and at intervals of 500 feet or less. (vi) "Business licensee," as used in paragraph (b), clause (9), includes a representative of a building trades labor or management organization. (vii) "Building" has the meaning given in section 609.581, subdivision 2. (b) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person intentionally: (1) permits domestic animals or fowls under the actor's control to go on the land of another within a city; (2) interferes unlawfully with a monument, sign, or pointer erected or marked to designate a point of a boundary, line or a political subdivision, or of a tract of land; (3) trespasses on the premises of another and, without claim of right, refuses to depart from the premises on demand of the lawful possessor; (4) occupies or enters the dwelling or locked or posted building of another, without claim of right or consent of the owner or the consent of one who has the right to give consent, except in an emergency situation; (5) enters the premises of another with intent to take or injure any fruit, fruit trees, or vegetables growing on the premises, without the permission of the owner or occupant; (6) enters or is found on the premises of a public or private cemetery without authorization during hours the cemetery is posted as closed to the public; (7) returns to the property of another with the intent to abuse, disturb, or cause distress in or threaten another, after being told to leave the property and not to return, if the actor is without claim of right to the property or consent of one with authority to consent; (8) returns to the property of another within one year after being told to leave the property and not to return, if the actor is without claim of right to the property or consent of one with authority to consent; (9) enters the locked or posted construction site of another without the consent of the owner or lawful possessor, unless the person is a business licensee; or (10) enters the locked or posted aggregate mining site of another without the consent of the owner or lawful possessor, unless the person is a business licensee. Subd. 2. Gross misdemeanor. Whoever trespasses upon the grounds of a facility providing emergency shelter services for battered women, as defined under section 611A.31, subdivision 3, or of a facility providing transitional housing for battered women and their children, without claim of right or consent of one who has right to give consent, and refuses to depart from the grounds of the facility on demand of one who has right to give consent, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. Subd. 3.[Repealed, 1993 c 326 art 2 s 34] Subd. 4. Trespasses on school property. (a) It is a misdemeanor for a person to enter or be found in a public or nonpublic elementary, middle, or secondary school building unless the person: (1) is an enrolled student in, a parent or guardian of an enrolled student in, or an employee of the school or school district; (2) has permission or an invitation from a school official to be in the building; (3) is attending a school event, class, or meeting to which the person, the public, or a student's family is invited; or (4) has reported the person's presence in the school building in the manner required for visitors to the school. (b) It is a misdemeanor for a person to be on the roof of a public or nonpublic elementary, middle, or secondary school building unless the person has permission from a school official to be on the roof of the building. (c) It is a gross misdemeanor for a group of three or more persons to enter or be found in a public or nonpublic elementary, middle, or secondary school building unless one of the persons: (1) is an enrolled student in, a parent or guardian of an enrolled student in, or an employee of the school or school district; (2) has permission or an invitation from a school official to be in the building; (3) is attending a school event, class, or meeting to which the person, the public, or a student's family is invited; or (4) has reported the person's presence in the school building in the manner required for visitors to the school. (d) It is a misdemeanor for a person to enter or be found on school property within one year after being told by the school principal or the principal's designee to leave the property and not to return, unless the principal or the principal's designee has given the person permission to return to the property. As used in this paragraph, "school property" has the meaning given in section 152.01, subdivision 14a, clauses (1) and (3). (e) A school principal or a school employee designated by the school principal to maintain order on school property, who has reasonable cause to believe that a person is violating this subdivision may detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable period of time pending the arrival of a peace officer. A school principal or designated school employee is not civilly or criminally liable for any action authorized under this paragraph if the person's action is based on reasonable cause. (f) A peace officer may arrest a person without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to believe the person violated this subdivision within the preceding four hours. The arrest may be made even though the violation did not occur in the peace officer's presence. Subd. 5. Certain trespass on agricultural land. (a) A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor if the person enters the posted premises of another on which cattle, bison, sheep, goats, swine, horses, poultry, farmed cervidae, farmed ratitae, aquaculture stock, or other species of domestic animals for commercial production are kept, without the consent of the owner or lawful occupant of the land. (b) "Domestic animal," for purposes of this section, has the meaning given in section 609.599. (c) "Posted," as used in paragraph (a), means the placement of a sign at least 11 inches square in a conspicuous place at each roadway entry to the premises. The sign must provide notice of a biosecurity area and wording such as: "Biosecurity measures are in force. No entrance beyond this point without authorization." The sign may also contain a telephone number or a location for obtaining such authorization. (d) The provisions of this subdivision do not apply to employees or agents of the state or county when serving in a regulatory capacity and conducting an inspection on posted premises where domestic animals are kept. History: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.605; 1971 c 23 s 62; 1973 c 123 art 5 s 7; 1976 c 251 s 1; 1978 c 512 s 1; 1981 c 365 s 9; 1982 c 408 s 2; 1985 c 159 s 2; 1986 c 444; 1987 c 307 s 3; 1989 c 5 s 9; 1989 c 261 s 5; 1990 c 426 art 1 s 54; 1993 c 326 art 1 s 14; art 2 s 13; art 4 s 32; 1993 c 366 s 13; 1994 c 465 art 1 s 60; 1995 c 226 art 3 s 48; 2004 c 254 s 46; 2005 c 136 art 17 s 41,42 Copyright © 2006 by the Office of the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved. Please direct all comments concerning issues or legislation to your House Member or State Senator. For Legislative Staff or for directions to the Capitol, visit the Contact Us page. General questions or comments. |
Author: | joelr [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
rthib wrote: Dee wrote: Most of your questions can be answered by this post: http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12434 Unless I missed something in the thread, that is talking about the violating the statues and trespass for places that can post and/or inform you. The examples I gave are exemptions to the trespass section of 624.714 (4-Public/Private and 6-Landlord) So the question was, if we are not in statutory violation of 624 - is there other trespass statues that apply? The statute is clear: the 624.714 mechanism is the only law that applies when telling a permit holder to leave a place he or she could otherwise go to because he or she is carrying, and state and subordinate governmental entities are forbidden to use even that. But . . . the law doesn't (and shouldn't) give permit holders privileges that other folks don't have, except for the carrying-the-gun stuff. So my reading -- IANAL -- is that a: you can be trespassed for any other reason; b: the reason must be real, and not merely a lie to cover up the intent to bar you from carrying in such places, and that c: lotsa luck proving that it was a lie. That any help? |
Author: | 340PD [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
To expand on what Joel said, I've always been under the impression that you can be asked to leave and they don't even need a reason. They can simple ask you to leave be it the corner store, the MOA, the pizza place, someone's front lawn, etc. and if you refuse to leave and the cops are called and you still refuse to leave you are guilty of trespassing. I didn't think they even had to articulate a reason. Also, I've been under the impression that this is separate from anything to do with the permit to carry. As stated the permit law adds some additional twists to it. |
Author: | kimberman [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
No. Section 624.714, subd. 17 expressly provides: Quote: (f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity. If you are lawfully carrying, the establishment MUST prove that the reason for their request to leave is based on another legitimate ground. Otherwise, 624.714 must be complied with. Because it is the more specific statute (and the later enacted), 624.714 takes precedence. |
Author: | joelr [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
kimberman wrote: No. Section 624.714, subd. 17 expressly provides: Quote: (f) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provisions in section 609.605, this subdivision sets forth the exclusive criteria to notify a permit holder when otherwise lawful firearm possession is not allowed in a private establishment and sets forth the exclusive penalty for such activity. If you are lawfully carrying, the establishment MUST prove that the reason for their request to leave is based on another legitimate ground. Otherwise, 624.714 must be complied with. Because it is the more specific statute (and the later enacted), 624.714 takes precedence. Which is why, I'm guessing, that we'll never see one of these cases go to trial. Somebody with a clean record won't want to have a trespassing conviction on it, so, in the pure case (permit holder told to leave solely because of the gun; doesn't; gets busted on real trespassing, with no testilying in the police report), the city attorney won't want to set the precedent that the law actually says what it means and means what it says, so it's likely to go away. If it ever gets that far. Pretty hard to see how the pure case could come about in the first place, other than as a setup. That said, some bad cops will go the "you may beat the charge, but you can't beat the ride" route. All in all, it's just another argument for carrying discreetly. |
Author: | Erik_Pakieser [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
It's been said before, but bears repeating - the trespass provision of our carry law is probably the best we can expect to have. In my home state of Nebraska, for example, you are guilty of a crime merely for entering a posted business while carrying- even if you don't see the sign, and the signs don't have a minimum size, etc. for visibility. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this. If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave! Don't go where you are not wanted, and you will go a long way towards staying out of trouble and avoiding conflict - which, as a permit holder, should be one of your primary concerns as you go through life. |
Author: | joelr [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Yup. It's the only one I know of -- Joe? Please check me on this -- that was designed to protect the innocent-of-anything-criminal permit holder. And, speaking as an activist, I purely love it that there's been zero tickets issued. Hard for that antis to argue that a 100% effective law needs "improvement." |
Author: | Traveler [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Erik_Pakieser wrote: If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave! Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense. |
Author: | Jeremiah [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Traveler wrote: Erik_Pakieser wrote: If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave! Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense. No more calls, kids- we have a winner. ![]() |
Author: | joelr [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Jeremiah wrote: Traveler wrote: Erik_Pakieser wrote: If someone asks you to leave their private property, leave! Sage advice whether you are carrying or not. I believe that a lot of situations would be prevented from become "bad" if everyone obeyed that little bit of common sense. No more calls, kids- we have a winner. ![]() Looping back to places that can't ban but put up signs anyway (not private property, obviously), there's no point in arguing with, say, the Mall of America security ninjas. They don't know what the law is, and probably don't care, so if you carry discreetly, you don't have to either leave, or try to edumacate them and then leave, because they won't be educable. (There is one place in the Mall where it's illegal for you to carry, by the way. Extra points to whoever names it first.) |
Author: | phorvick [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
Hmm...one place it is illegal. If I were to guess, and I am not 100% certain how you are defining "illegal", but perhaps the Metropolitan Learning Alliance...it is, I believe, a mall campus High School. But, I suppose you might be able to get permission.... I am not certain what other services might be there...for example, is there a post office at the mall, or perhaps a federal facility? |
Author: | joelr [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Places that can't ban - What is the Tresspass law? |
phorvick wrote: Hmm...one place it is illegal. If I were to guess, and I am not 100% certain how you are defining "illegal", but perhaps the Metropolitan Learning Alliance...it is, I believe, a mall campus High School. One the nosie -- it's a school (and, in fact, the school that my older kid used to go to). I should have figured you'd get it. (Andrew wouldn't be eligible; we discussed that very issue way back when.) |
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