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 Clarification of MN Carry Law 
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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:06 am 
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mrokern wrote:
Interesting...

Mikew13, if you'd like to privately share what department your friend is in (I don't need his name), please feel free to PM me. Someone will politely reach out and offer them a refresher training...

-Mark
That would be a very good thing; it would be even a better thing if the department took you (or anybody else who knows this stuff) up on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:28 am 
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joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Interesting...

Mikew13, if you'd like to privately share what department your friend is in (I don't need his name), please feel free to PM me. Someone will politely reach out and offer them a refresher training...

-Mark
That would be a very good thing; it would be even a better thing if the department took you (or anybody else who knows this stuff) up on it.


I'd bet they won't; many deparments resent anyone who is not a cop telling them anything. They need the security blanket. They don't use lawyers either. (I can tell.) Which is why his advice is so completely f*cked up.

Cops that are insecure like it when they can be a bit cynical about the law, and have the instructor tell them not to worry, because cops can always avoid following the law themselves, and they've got the civilians by the nuts, because they are, well, cops. A civilian carry instructor would touch the comfort zone.....

The BCA teaches carry law, or so they say. They have courses. (Sheriff's can spend the day and charge it to the permit fee account.) They use cops and folks from the AG's office. But since the 60,000 permitees are taught by carry instructors, it would simply be a normal teaching practice to bring in somebody for an hour just to teach the class about these folks. But no, some cop and some disinterested AG lawyer can read the law the day before, make up a powerpoint on the paragraphs, and that's the course.

When they have extra time, they can make sh*t up, things that they think the law should say, like lose rights forever with cold medication, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:56 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Interesting...

Mikew13, if you'd like to privately share what department your friend is in (I don't need his name), please feel free to PM me. Someone will politely reach out and offer them a refresher training...

-Mark
That would be a very good thing; it would be even a better thing if the department took you (or anybody else who knows this stuff) up on it.


I'd bet they won't; many deparments resent anyone who is not a cop telling them anything.
Yup. But there are lots of good reasons to make the offer, even if it isn't accepted.
Quote:
They need the security blanket. They don't use lawyers either. (I can tell.) Which is why his advice is so completely f*cked up.

Cops that are insecure like it when they can be a bit cynical about the law, and have the instructor tell them not to worry, because cops can always avoid following the law themselves, and they've got the civilians by the nuts, because they are, well, cops. A civilian carry instructor would touch the comfort zone.....
Yup. I've been doing HR218 classes for the retired folks from one department -- and some others; they've opened it up some -- for several years, now, and the paradigm shift has been kind of interesting. This is a particularly good bunch of folks, but it's been difficult for some to make the transition, and it hasn't always been comfortable for anyone . . . .although I enjoy the whole experience immensely, on balance.
Quote:
The BCA teaches carry law, or so they say. They have courses. (Sheriff's can spend the day and charge it to the permit fee account.) They use cops and folks from the AG's office. But since the 60,000 permitees are taught by carry instructors, it would simply be a normal teaching practice to bring in somebody for an hour just to teach the class about these folks. But no, some cop and some disinterested AG lawyer can read the law the day before, make up a powerpoint on the paragraphs, and that's the course.

When they have extra time, they can make sh*t up, things that they think the law should say, like lose rights forever with cold medication, etc.
This, alas, turns out to be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:23 am 
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I was talking with a local trooper, and they just found out they could be asked to leave while off duty. So at least "some" training is going on...

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:29 am 
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Yup. And you're in a far better position to be effective in that than -- literally -- any other certified instructor I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:57 am 
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brent fox wrote:
Uh, I think you guys missed a certain concept.

It is NOT strictly a .04 limit = .03 you are legally OK
IF YOU ARE IMPAIRED you are in violation.

If you take Nyquil and are sleepy behind the wheel, (and carrying) you are in violation of your carry permit.


Correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:00 pm 
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kimberman wrote:
brent fox wrote:
Uh, I think you guys missed a certain concept.

It is NOT strictly a .04 limit = .03 you are legally OK
IF YOU ARE IMPAIRED you are in violation.

If you take Nyquil and are sleepy behind the wheel, (and carrying) you are in violation of your carry permit.


Correct.

Which is as it should be. OTOH, if you're taking, say, metformin, you are (one would hope) being affected by the pharmaceutical, but you're not "under the influence", as it doesn't negatively impact on your performance and judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:26 pm 
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I would think that if you're sufficiently under the influence of caffeine to be visibly wired, you shouldn't be carrying. A cup of coffee in the morning, who cares?


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:04 am 
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bstrawse wrote:
Your friend is *sorely* mistaken on MN Carry Laws.

I suggest he at least re-read the statutes - they are quite clear.
b


For the life of me I don't know why you used "re-read" instead of "read". I have known many LEO's who, while working the streets of one of our larger metropolitan areas, didn't seem to know any of the laws they were charged with enforcing. One of them was a Minnesota legislator for a long time, actively writing some of those statutes. Another one could recite in accurate and complete fashion all of the narrative from the labels on a bottle of LeRoux blackberry brandy but could not articulate what section 169.14 of Minnesota statutes is even while writing out a traffic citation. :roll:

With all due respect.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:41 am 
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Traveler wrote:
bstrawse wrote:
Your friend is *sorely* mistaken on MN Carry Laws.

I suggest he at least re-read the statutes - they are quite clear.
b


For the life of me I don't know why you used "re-read" instead of "read". I have known many LEO's who, while working the streets of one of our larger metropolitan areas, didn't seem to know any of the laws they were charged with enforcing. One of them was a Minnesota legislator for a long time, actively writing some of those statutes. Another one could recite in accurate and complete fashion all of the narrative from the labels on a bottle of LeRoux blackberry brandy but could not articulate what section 169.14 of Minnesota statutes is even while writing out a traffic citation. :roll:

With all due respect.
Sure. Cops are not, with some exceptions, trained in the law; they're trained, in most cases, as to what procedures their department believes that they should follow. When it comes to the "conceal and carry law", I think our own Tman is, at best, a 1%er, in that he's looked at the law itself. (And I'm not talking about the Bad Cop stuff either, necessarily -- in one of my favorite departments, all of the guys appear to know the law, but they've been educated ion it, in many cases, only informally, by the retired guys who hired them. Honest.)

And then there's the many, who Just Won't Listen.

I was buying a gun at Mark's old store, some years ago -- before 2003. We were chatting with one of his cop friends, who "reminded" me that I had to put the lock on the gun case and put it in the trunk of the car.

"Nah," I said. "If I want to, I can load it up, strap it on my hip, and drive home." (I quoted the stat at him.)

"No, you can't. Not unless you have a carry permit."

"Yeah, I can," I said with a smile. "Nothing to worry about."

"Well, if I pulled you over, and the gun case was even on the fucking seat beside you, I'd haul you in."

"Cool. You got a nice house?"

"You threatening me?"

"No, not at all. Just wondering if you've got a fireplace. I'd love to have a fireplace."

(It was at that moment that Mark ruined my fun by telling the guy I had a carry permit, and he explained that, oh, that was different, as long as I was carrying in accord with the limitations on the back of the permit. I took out my wallet -- to pay for the gun -- and showed him the "for personal safety, as needed" endorsement on the back of my permit, and after he put his eyes back in his head -- he'd never seen one of those before -- he decided that he probably wouldn't haul me in for having a gun in a case on the seat next to me, as long as there was nobody else in the car who could possibly get at it.

(Having done my good deed for the day, I left it at that.)

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:16 am 
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Traveler wrote:
For the life of me I don't know why you used "re-read" instead of "read". I have known many LEO's who, while working the streets of one of our larger metropolitan areas, didn't seem to know any of the laws they were charged with enforcing. One of them was a Minnesota legislator for a long time, actively writing some of those statutes. Another one could recite in accurate and complete fashion all of the narrative from the labels on a bottle of LeRoux blackberry brandy but could not articulate what section 169.14 of Minnesota statutes is even while writing out a traffic citation. :roll:

With all due respect.


No offense taken :)

I have a tendency to measure training against what I received going through the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy in the mid 1990s -- where we discussed, say, Robbery, and did something like this:
- Read the statute
- Broke it down into the elements of the crime (i.e. to commit robbery, a person has to do A, B, and C, etc)
- Discussed real life scenarios based on the statute & statutory elements of the crime

Later, we were tested on such things.

I thought I received a great education in the basics of Indiana's criminal code at the time - unfortunately, not all states do things the same :)

B

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:09 am 
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I would say that the criminal code courses that I've taken in MN have been similar to what you're describing.

I suppose it's the difference between the person who earns an 'A' in the course versus a person who earns a 'C' or 'D' some of you probably know how bad of shots many cops are as well*. Same type of thing.

*That being said, many cops are great shooters too.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Quote:
I have a tendency to measure training against what I received going through the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy in the mid 1990s -- where we discussed, say, Robbery, and did something like this:
- Read the statute
- Broke it down into the elements of the crime (i.e. to commit robbery, a person has to do A, B, and C, etc)
- Discussed real life scenarios based on the statute & statutory elements of the crime


This is what the Minnesota P.O.S.T. Board requires too, IIRC. But they do not "audit" classes to make sure any learning is done.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:47 pm 
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kimberman wrote:
Quote:
I have a tendency to measure training against what I received going through the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy in the mid 1990s -- where we discussed, say, Robbery, and did something like this:
- Read the statute
- Broke it down into the elements of the crime (i.e. to commit robbery, a person has to do A, B, and C, etc)
- Discussed real life scenarios based on the statute & statutory elements of the crime


This is what the Minnesota P.O.S.T. Board requires too, IIRC. But they do not "audit" classes to make sure any learning is done.


How would they have audited the inside of my head?

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification of MN Carry Law
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:04 pm 
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tman065 wrote:
kimberman wrote:
Quote:
I have a tendency to measure training against what I received going through the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy in the mid 1990s -- where we discussed, say, Robbery, and did something like this:
- Read the statute
- Broke it down into the elements of the crime (i.e. to commit robbery, a person has to do A, B, and C, etc)
- Discussed real life scenarios based on the statute & statutory elements of the crime


This is what the Minnesota P.O.S.T. Board requires too, IIRC. But they do not "audit" classes to make sure any learning is done.


How would they have audited the inside of my head?
The POST board? They would have demanded that you smash it open and show them your brains to provide documentation for your plaintiff's lawyer when he sues you.

On the other hand, they could spot-audit some classes, and do a post-class test, or evaluate the quality of the instruction in some other, fair way.

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