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 St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase 
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 Post subject: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Okay guys, I have a secret, I have yet to get my permit to carry BUT I do come by here on occasion anyways.

You may recall this thread http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13110&start=15 were I state I had to push ST. A PD to get my permit on time but they didn't demand any additional ID beyond DL

Guess what? I have a message on my machine stating my permit is ready but I need to bring in DL and Passport or Birth Certificate.

I am going to print out these pages instead.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7131

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id ... at.624.713

I am going to highlight


Subdivision 1.Information. Any person may apply for a transferee permit by providing the following information in writing to the chief of police

(items 1- 4 highlighting only the number)

Subd. 4.Grounds for disqualification. A determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the applicant is prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit.

Subd. 5.Granting of permits. The chief of police or sheriff shall issue a transferee permit or deny the application within seven days of application for the permit. The chief of police or sheriff shall provide an applicant with written notification of a denial and the specific reason for the denial. The permits and their renewal shall be granted free of charge.

Subd. 12.Local regulation. This section shall be construed to supersede municipal or county regulation of the issuance of transferee permits.


Wish me luck. I am not the best public speaker AND generally when you push an issue with the police you get 7 cops to all come and stare at you and puff up and try to get you to submit. Plus basic human nature, peer pressure is a real thing.

BUT if ST. A PD is able to keep on adding additional extra-legal hurdles that to me is unacceptable.

hum...i had a gateway time-out let me try again


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:31 pm 
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That sucks! It took something like 15 business days the last time I got mine :bang: I kept going in and they kept saying it was not ready. I politely reminded the secretary that what the time line was. The last day said I would wait until it was ready or if they wanted I would seek a legal option :D It will be interesting what happens when I go in again.

PS I have yet to get my Carry permit :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:52 pm 
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(Duplicate topic deleted.)


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:30 pm 
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well, I stopped by with a copy of the law (see link)

I was told I needed a birth certificate or passport to prove I was not an illegal alien :shock:

What's next? A pee test to prove I am not a drug addict?

I told them the law doesn't require me to provide those documents, that the whole reason for a background check was for them to check and find out that kind of thing, but that they may give me a refusal letter citing the fact they think I am an illegal alien.

But, the law does state that they have to make "A determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the applicant is prohibited" Not 'we have no evidence either way'

Which means they can't say 'we don't know for sure, we think probably not, but he MAYBE is an illegal alien' they have to say 'WE THINK HE IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN'

Chief was not in to give that letter. I will be going back tormorrow.

They also told me that it was a 'permit to purchase' not a 'transferee permit' hence I didn't have the right law. I told them it was the same thing.

I am going back tomorrow with the whole 624.711 - 624.718 section printed out (if my ink cartridge holds up), BUT I am going to point out that right on the bottom of the permit it say 'the transferree permit shall be void if...' and also point out that the law requires them to have copies of transfree permit forms...so if that is different than the form I filled out, where are THOSE forms...and also point out that by definition in 624.712 transfer is

Subd. 6. Transfer. "Transfer" means a sale, gift, loan, assignment or other delivery to
another, whether or not for consideration, of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault
weapon or the frame or receiver of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:06 am 
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Jerks in Blue.

This is why police chiefs don't get to issue carry permits anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:32 am 
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kimberman wrote:
Jerks in Blue.

This is why police chiefs don't get to issue carry permits anymore.
I think that, the next time we have to do legislation, we ought to either a: take this away from them, and/or b: provide for lawyer's fees and double damages.

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:49 pm 
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joelr wrote:
kimberman wrote:
Jerks in Blue.

This is why police chiefs don't get to issue carry permits anymore.
I think that, the next time we have to do legislation, we ought to either a: take this away from them, and/or b: provide for lawyer's fees and double damages.


And NOT from the public coffers.


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:05 pm 
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Q_Continuum wrote:
joelr wrote:
kimberman wrote:
Jerks in Blue.

This is why police chiefs don't get to issue carry permits anymore.
I think that, the next time we have to do legislation, we ought to either a: take this away from them, and/or b: provide for lawyer's fees and double damages.


And NOT from the public coffers.


Unfortunately, any damages would, kind of by definition, come from the public coffers- where else would the money come from if not the department's budget?

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:27 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
Q_Continuum wrote:
joelr wrote:
kimberman wrote:
Jerks in Blue.

This is why police chiefs don't get to issue carry permits anymore.
I think that, the next time we have to do legislation, we ought to either a: take this away from them, and/or b: provide for lawyer's fees and double damages.


And NOT from the public coffers.


Unfortunately, any damages would, kind of by definition, come from the public coffers- where else would the money come from if not the department's budget?

Yup. It'll continue to come out of yours and my pockets until we start saying NO.

We can, by the way, start saying NO as soon as there's enough of us who want to.

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:38 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Jeremiah wrote:
Yup. It'll continue to come out of yours and my pockets until we start saying NO.

We can, by the way, start saying NO as soon as there's enough of us who want to.



I want to say NO.


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Okay, progress update, or actually lack of progress update.

I was under the impression that I was going to meeting with the chief face to face. He instead insisted on doing it over the phone, probably because I had politely and openly stated I was going to record my meeting with the desk staff and he knew I'd probably record our meeting as well.

No dice. The story was this:

#1 Transferee permit is NOT the same as a permit to purchase (but they don't know what law deals with permit to purchase, nor why the 'permit to purchase' self-refers to itself as a transferee permit, nor why the law I brought in happened to have a definition section that said
Quote:
"Transfer" means a sale, gift, loan, assignment or other delivery to another,"


#2 The was a change in department policy about a year ago because they were wondering if a person who applied for a permit was an illegal alien, so they decided that the best thing to do was demand passport or birth certificate from EVERYONE. When I pointed out that the law specifically stated it overrode 'department policy' he didn't care because:

#3 The chief believed he was to determine if a person met all the qualifications per state law to own a firearm before he'd issue a permit. I pointed out that the law said he wasn't supposed to determine if I was qualified, he simply had a window in which to determined I was prohibited, and that if he had no evidence either way, then he had failed to determine I was prohibited, and hence couldn't legally bar me from a permit.

Quote:
624.7131 Subd. 4. states that the only grounds for disqualification of the transferee permit is if the investigation DETERMINES the applicant is disqualified according to MN law 624.713


(I view it like you don't get to keep a person in jail because you are unable to prove him innocent, simply being unable to prove him guilty means he goes free.)

I called the Attorney General's help line and talked to a guy there who while he said "I can't give you legal advice" kept on saying 'the law is clear, you only need to provide X, Y, and X' and 'the law is clear, there is no need to provide passport or birth certificate' and 'the law is clear a permit can only be denied if the chief determines the person is disqualified'

He suggested I contact the city attorney as the city attorney's job is to advise the chief of police on how to interpret the law.

I did. Unfortunately the City Attorney for Falcon Heights is an Instructor for the St Anthony PD's Citizen's Academy, which makes me think she is close friends with him.

I wrote her a letter stating:

Quote:
My name is XXXXXXXX, and I am a resident of Falcon Heights. I am contacting you in your position of City Attorney at the suggestion of the MN Attorney General's office.

The issue is have applied for a 'Permit to Purchase' and the St Anthony Police Chief is violating state statute in this regard.

I have confirmed with the AG's office that 'Permit to Purchase' is a 'layman's term' for Transferee Permit which is addressed in statute 624.7131

Please note the following


A. 624.712 defines transfer as "Subd. 6.Transfer. "Transfer" means a sale, gift, loan, assignment or other delivery to another, whether or not for consideration, of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon or the frame or receiver of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon."

(This seems to indicate that 'transferrer' would be a seller and 'transferee' would be a purchaser.)

B. The "permit to purchase" itself, on the inside bottom refers to itself as a transferee permit in the phrase "The Transferree (sic) permit shall..."

The St Anthony Chief of Police is taking the stance that they are NOT the same thing, but is unable to tell me what law then actually pertains to or requires a 'permit to purchase'.

The first action I ask of you is to please confirm on your own that 624.7131 IS the law that pertains to 'permit to purchase' and that Transferee Permit is the same thing, and then please help the St Anthony Chief understand this.


Second, please note 624.7131 Subd 12. which states "Local regulation. This section shall be construed to supersede municipal or county regulation of the issuance of transferee permits." Please help the St Anthony Chief understand that due to this, his personal 'department policy' decision are not relevant and he must follow the steps as spelled out in 624.7131

Third, please point out to the St Anthony Chief of Police that 624.7131 has a VERY SPECIFIC list of what information someone applying for a Transferee Permit must supply, and that his personal policy of demanding information beyond the list in subdivision 1 is not legally allowed. Specifically please inform the Chief that he cannot demand any fingerprints, birth certificates, marksmanship tests, DNR safety course certificates, passports, drug tests, or a 4th grade report card because those items are not included in the very specific list of what the applicant needs to provide.

Fourth, please note Subd. 4 which states: "Grounds for Disqualification. A determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the applicant is prohibited by section624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit." Please help the Chief understand that simply failing to provide him with additional extralegal paperwork is NOT grounds for disqualification.

Fifth, please note in Subd. 4 that the grounds for disqualification are 'a determination....that the applicant is prohibited' This means the applicant does not have to provide proof they ARE allowed to own firearms, but that the chief must find some sort of evidence that they ARE NOT allowed to own firearms. The specifics in my situation is that he cannot claim I am an illegal alien without some sort of factual basis, and cannot hold my permit to purchase hostage until I provide my citizenship to him.

If this is not resolved to my satisfaction very soon I will be forced to utilize subdivision 8 and bring this matter up in district court. I'd rather not waste the district court's valuable time because the St Anthony Chief of Police cannot be bothered to read a two page law.

Also, for your own assurances, please note that I AM a US citizen, I was born in Monroe Wisconsin. Also, please note that I have received at least THREE different 'permits to purchase', and am currently in possession of a permit signed by the current St Anthony Chief of Police which was issued on 8/4/2009 and hence has expired a few months ago. In none of my other applications have I ever been told I need to prove that I am not an illegal alien.


Her response back did not mention subd 12 (the supersede clause) at all and simply stressed that the chief had to determine that I was NOT an illegal alien and that birth certificate or passport was reasonable.



So now I am at a loss of what to do next. I cannot imagine how a lawyer can read the law and not notice the 'supersede' clause, nor notice the specific list of what information must be provided, or fail to catch the nuanced difference between 'determine if the person is prohibited or not' vs 'determine the applicant is prohibited'

I am thinking of recontacting the State AG's office, or the governor's office, or contacting speaker of the house Kurt Zellers (under the thinking if I was a legislator I'd want to know when city officials were totally ignoring laws passed by the house and senate that specifically stated they superseded city ordinances)

I am also thinking as there is subd 8 which talks about going to district court over a denial except

#1 the reasoning there is you ARE a prohibited person but you have some pressing need for a gun anyways
#2 I never really got a denial letter, just a letter stating chief needs to determine my eligibility, and once I show up with my passport or birth certificate I will be given one
#3 I have no idea how to do the paperwork to begin an appeal of the denial.

But I do believe if I DID get in front of a judge he would likely tell the chief exactly how the law worked and to comply with it.

Anyways, I am open to suggestions.

I'd love to hear from anyone who appealed a denial of a CCW, even though they are not the same I'd think getting started would be pretty similar.


Last edited by akodo on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:45 am 
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Quote:
Anyways, I am open to suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Scott Hughes wrote:
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Anyways, I am open to suggestions.


Contact Marc Berris 612-332-3100 e-mail marc@berrislaw.com


Yep, you need a lawyer, plain fact is nothing short of a judges order is going to make the Chief do anything different than what he is doing now... And you're not going to get that without a lawyer.

On the plus side... They are responsible for the legal fees, if they loose.

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 Post subject: Re: St Anthony Demands Birth Certificate for Permit to Purchase
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:49 pm 
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RobD wrote:
Scott Hughes wrote:
Quote:
Anyways, I am open to suggestions.


Contact Marc Berris 612-332-3100 e-mail marc@berrislaw.com


Yep, you need a lawyer, plain fact is nothing short of a judges order is going to make the Chief do anything different than what he is doing now... And you're not going to get that without a lawyer.

On the plus side... They are responsible for the legal fees, if they loose.



Um....I don't know they would be responsible for legal fees in this case. For a permit to carry, yes, they would be if they loose but I believe he is after a permit to purchase. This may be a case of how much justice can you afford. I will happily say sorry if I am incorrect.

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That is all....


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