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 Guns on campus? 
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 Post subject: Guns on campus?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:49 pm 
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My girlfriend has to do an 8 minute persuasive speech. I would like to get some feed back of ideas for her to persuade to be able to carry on campus. This is not something that is going to the board or anything just to persuade her class. She couldn't think of anything so I suggested this as a topic. any ideas or help would be much appreciated. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Wow, only 8 minutes on this topic?

I'll give you the text of an email interview I gave that she can start off of if she wants. Non-relevant parts omitted. I'll link you to some information as well.


Quote:
First, we don't actually have a "conceal and carry" law in our state. We have a "Permit to Carry a Pistol" law. Minor issue, but a clarification for my language in my response.

Carry of a firearm is currently allowed almost anywhere that a person is otherwise allowed to go. Some places that carry is not allowed includes schools (other than universities), federal property, jails, secure areas of airports, etc.

Carry on campus is currently not illegal for anyone. The law, as it stands now, does not prohibit carry on campus, it allows universities to establish rules restricting carry on campus by students and staff. MNSCU decided to pass a rule requiring all universities to prohibit carry on campus. The primary argument against carry on campus is an argument of discomfort.

I support carry on campus for several reasons. Here are a few of them. First, there is no reason to prohibit it. Permit holders have demonstrated extremely well that they are peaceful, law-abiding individuals. Being a college student who is a permit holder does not change that fact. Second, people should have the same rights on campus that they have off campus. Third, individuals should be allowed to ensure their own safety. Ensuring your own personal safety is your own personal responsibility. Sometimes you need tools to ensure your own safety.

The opposing side has many thoughts, so I can't really address all of them. Some of the major thoughts include:
1.) Allowing carry on campus will result in shootouts at the OK Corral on campus.
2.) Allowing carry on campus will cause students to feel uncomfortable knowing that someone has a gun.
3.) Allowing carry on campus will cause students to be afraid to disagree in classes.
4.) Allowing carry on campus will result in stolen guns on campus.
5.) Allowing carry on campus will result in students grabbing another student's gun and shooting them with it.

The fact is that these are concerns that have been brought up for decades. None of them have panned out in reality. I'll take them point by point.

1.) This hasn't actually happened in real life. With approximately 1% of the population of the United States holding their state's version of a permit to carry, or around 3 million people, I'd call that fairly significant.
2.) Permit holders carry guns concealed. Approximately 1% of the population of Minnesota carries a firearm. Statistically speaking, that means that every time they go to a movie theater with around 200 people inside, they are sitting with 2 people that have guns. How uncomfortable do you feel at the movie theaters? If you go to the mall and see 500 people, 5 of them likely were carrying a gun. How uncomfortable do you feel at the mall? Individuals are going about their daily lives feeling perfectly comfortable, and all the while 1 in 100 people that they see are carrying guns. College campus is no different.
3.) This argument essentially falls to the same problems as the prior argument. How uncomfortable are people knowing that 1% of the individuals that they interact with outside of campus are carrying guns? College campus is no different.
4.) This really hasn't been a problem with permit holders in reality. Permit holders are very careful with their guns to make sure they can not be stolen. Who pickpockets a gun that they don't know about off of someone's belt?
5.) Again, this hasn't been a problem with permit holders in reality. First, the gun is concealed. Nobody knows it's there. How do you steal something that you don't know exists? Second, if a person does know that the gun is there, who is going to try to take it away? How many people want to fight over a gun with a person that carries a gun? There are much safer ways for criminals to get guns than fighting with an armed person for it.
These arguments really are easy to defend in theory, but easier still to defend in reality. These scenarios that have been talked about, with almost 60,000 permit holders in Minnesota haven't actually happened in real life. They are fiction. Further, 11 campuses in the nation have now allowed carry on campus for a combined total of approximately 70 semesters. That's a combined 35 years of carry on campus between them. None of these scenarios has happened even once on any of those campuses.


Some resources:

http://www.concealedcampus.org/sccc_package.pdf <----- Sixty pages
http://www.concealedcampus.org/arguments.htm <------ Good answers to common arguments. (Which they almost always are. I've gotten very few unique counter-arguments.
Finally, there is a very good article that was published very recently with a video news portion as well.
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.as ... 7534a6de3c

The gun free zones argument is fun to play on. You can easily incorporate some humor while addressing the stupidity of a gun free zone. Often times there will be a few people who will get a little bit tense (I had one whose jaw was wide open during my entire statement at one point, 10 minutes!) Using a little humor to lighten it can relax these people and make them more receptive, and help drive your point as well.

If you need anything more, let me know.


PS: Do you have an SCCC chapter on your campus?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Check out the Gun Free Zones = Killing Zones thread and the video linked in it!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:27 am 
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Also check with the SCCC, we have some of their guys on here.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:28 am 
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One thing I think most people think of when they hear of students being able to carry on campus is that every student will be able to carry on campus. This frightens people as they think of some drunk 18 year old with a gun. I would point out that only those over 21 who take the time and pay the expense of training would qualify. Out of the 50,000+ students at the ‘U’ for example you might actually have 300 at any one time that fall into this category.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:34 am 
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I'd add that these 21+ YO students have passed an extensive background check and had a class covering the law and consequences in excruciating detail( at least the good classes do). These are responsible people who are informed on the issue. They're personally involved in the process and it's not just a lark or a joke to them. They take it seriously enough to submit to said background check, spend 5-8 hours in a class, take a shooting exercise, spend $150 - $400 plus, and wait 30+ days for said permit.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:34 am 
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It would be a good idea to point out the percentage of permit holders who commit crimes in contrast to the percentage of non permit holders who commit crimes.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:38 pm 
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Ill see if I can find the notes on the speech I did last semester. It was about 10 minutes long.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:18 pm 
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I would bring up the law-abiding permit-holder stats, and then ask "What turns these people into ravening beasts when they step onto campus?"

[Edited for clarity]

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:59 am 
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You may want to point out that non-student/staff with permits to carry cannot be prevented from carrying on public COLLEGE campuses.

*edited for clarity


Last edited by SultanOfBrunei on Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:29 am 
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27706201/

Here is a poll that might add some info for her...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:00 am 
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bkrafft wrote:
"What turns these people into ravening beasts when they step onto campus?"


An evil lunatic killing people in what ever fashion they can. :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:17 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
You may want to point out that non-student/staff with permits to carry cannot be prevented from carrying on public school campuses.


and along these lines, someone on the board once said something to the effect of "if 1% of all Minnesotans hold a permit to carry that means that (statistically speaking) every time you go into a movie theater - there are two people carrying in there with you."

I would expand on that idea to show that are already a lot of people carrying and that they do interact with your lives as it is - and you haven't noticed.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:41 am 
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jhp wrote:
"if 1% of all Minnesotans hold a permit to carry that means that (statistically speaking) every time you go into a movie theater - there could be<s>are</s> one or two other people with a permit to carry and legally carrying in there with you."

I added some words in bold to reflect the reality that there are probably a lot of the PTC holders that don't carry regularly for a variety of reasons, inconvenience being ranked highest in this list of reasons and complacency not much farther down list.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:46 am 
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ree wrote:
jhp wrote:
"if 1% of all Minnesotans hold a permit to carry that means that (statistically speaking) every time you go into a movie theater - there could be<s>are</s> one or two other people with a permit to carry and legally carrying in there with you."

I added some words in bold to reflect the reality that there are probably a lot of the PTC holders that don't carry regularly for a variety of reasons, inconvenience being ranked highest in this list of reasons and complacency not much farther down list.


I think you just took the "teeth" out of what I was trying to convey. Statistically speaking THERE ARE 1 or 2 other people that ARE carrying in that movie theater.

Laziness, complacency, etc aside - also not accounting for which theater you go into, on which day, in which city and which movie is showing.

If it were me giving the speech, I would try and emphasize that people who are legally carrying are already out there - everywhere you go - not just that *could* be there.


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