Man has no regrets defending Oklahoma City pharmacy
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:44 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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joelr wrote: There's all sorts of possibilities -- and I'm not saying that any of these happened, or are likely, or will make a difference, but I've got some questions -- and please don't infer what you think my answers are, because nobody knows what my answers are, even me: What if the first shot -- the one to the head -- killed the robber? What crime is committed when, in fact, one shoots a dead person? (Sure, there are some -- but is it murder?) We don't see the shootie when he was on the floor. Did he make one of those "furtive motions" that, when a cop pulls a trigger on somebody who turns out to be unarmed, becomes the legal justification? Was he running on adrenaline and temporarily unable to comport himself as required by law? I dunno about any of this, but I am going to be doing some research over the next few days, and talking about his case in the obvious place, this weekend.
The one you can answer now (supposedly) is actually what led to my half-smartassed post above concerning using enough gun for the first shot. It seems that one of the things that started all this was the autopsy reporting stating that the head wound was not fatal.
Now, whether there was a bias to that report...I dunno.
-Mark
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Erik_Pakieser
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:18 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:16 am Posts: 364 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Looks pretty bad in the video. I'd say this fellow is in some serious trouble.
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kecker
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:51 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:57 am Posts: 818 Location: Apple Valley, MN
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joelr wrote: There's all sorts of possibilities -- and I'm not saying that any of these happened, or are likely, or will make a difference, but I've got some questions -- and please don't infer what you think my answers are, because nobody knows what my answers are, even me: What if the first shot -- the one to the head -- killed the robber? What crime is committed when, in fact, one shoots a dead person? (Sure, there are some -- but is it murder?) We don't see the shootie when he was on the floor. Did he make one of those "furtive motions" that, when a cop pulls a trigger on somebody who turns out to be unarmed, becomes the legal justification? Was he running on adrenaline and temporarily unable to comport himself as required by law? I dunno about any of this, but I am going to be doing some research over the next few days, and talking about his case in the obvious place, this weekend.
Those two questions are probably the best chance he has at a legal defense. But I'm with what appears to be the consensus here, he's toast. We'd make about as sympathetic of a jury (without endorsing vigilantism) as you could find for the guy and still the decision seems to be guilty.
_________________ http://www.eckernet.com My mind is like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:50 pm |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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This guy and his mouthpiece were on O'reilly tonight. Missed almost all of it. They are emphasizing his fear that the guy had a gun and that the whole incident only took 45 secs
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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Dick Unger
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:15 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am Posts: 2444 Location: West Central MN
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This inccident started as clear self defense. No "reluctant participant" issues, and a holdup, not a bar fight or anything like that.
The phamacist shows no fear or reluctance, he seemed to enjoy the opportunity. It's hard to identify with his reation. Of course, he is a lieutenant colonel, by definition, not a wimp, and not a complete idiot. I would argue "taking care of business" in his defense.
Because the initial self defense position is solid, and the whole incident took less than a minute a jury may well identify with the defendant, if he did not destroy his credibility by his statements later.
A jury who accepts the initial self defense may not expect a person who is attacked to defend himself in a perfect manner. My own reaction? I tend to just be glad he "won". The "victim" was lovable only to his Mom, I think.
He's probably pretty good with his gun. A head shot with a carry gun at one of two assailants who have the drop on you? Either stupid and lucky or really good. I think he's good.
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tepin
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:42 am |
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:00 pm Posts: 1064 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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joelr
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Post subject: Update: three more murder charges Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:15 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Link:
Quote: Mother of teen criticizes prosecutor over charge
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The mother of a 14-year-old charged with murder in the shooting death of another teenager during an attempted robbery says the prosecutor has gone back on his word.
Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater has charged Jevontia Ingram and two men with first-degree murder in the May 19 death of 16-year-old Antwun Parker. Parker was shot by pharmacist Jerome Ersland and Ersland is also charged with murder.
Ingram’s mother — Natasha Spigner — says the two teens were persuaded by 31-year-old Emanuel Mitchell and 43-year-old Anthony Morrison to try and rob the pharmacy.
Mitchell and Morrison are the two men also charged with murder.
Spigner says Prater initially said he would charge only Erslander and is going back on his word. Prater says he changed his mind after additional legal research.
He further went on to explain: "Neener, neener, neener."
_________________ Just a guy.
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joelr
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Post subject: I'm starting to like this DA. Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:18 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-new ... 0936.story
Quote: One day after the shooting the pharmacist told NewsChannel Four his physical condition and fear for his and his co-workers lives prompted him to fire at the two juvenile robbers - killing one of them. Now prosecutors fear Ersland's life could be in danger. District Attorney David Prater insisted Ersland be allowed to carry a gun even though he was charged with first degree murder. The judge seemed stunned by the request.
"You're saying the DA in Oklahoma County wants him to have a gun," Judge Tammy Bass-Lesure said.
"That's right," David Prater said.
_________________ Just a guy.
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Carbide Insert
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:53 am |
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Poet Laureate |
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 am Posts: 760 Location: Hutchinson, MN
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So, let me get this straight:
Prosecutor and Defendant parties both agree to something, where there is no point of contention whatsoever, and the judge says, "Screw you! You're both going to do what I want!"??
WTF!?
_________________ It's not always easy these days to tell which of our two major political parties is the Stupid Party and which is the Evil Party...
But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:55 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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On the nosie.
_________________ Just a guy.
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westhope
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:02 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:11 am Posts: 572 Location: West of Hope, MN (S. Central MN)
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He appeared, with his attorney, on the "Bill O'Reilly Show" last night. He had a somewhat plausible explanation of the encounter and why the last shots were taken. Might just be enough.
I don't know why he is going so public with the encounter. Only his lawyer knows that.
For me, the last shots are questionable. (So is chasing the other thug out the door and shooting at him.)
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:26 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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westhope wrote: He appeared, with his attorney, on the "Bill O'Reilly Show" last night. He had a somewhat plausible explanation of the encounter and why the last shots were taken. Might just be enough.
I don't know why he is going so public with the encounter. Only his lawyer knows that.
For me, the last shots are questionable. (So is chasing the other thug out the door and shooting at him.)
They may be just trying to do damage control. He already put himself out there, so at this point shutting up may appear even worse. At least now the lawyer is guiding what he says.
-Mark
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bkrafft
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Post subject: More things *not* to say Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:32 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:02 pm Posts: 571
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From: http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/46733292.html
Quote: "I got my burglar here right now. I got him at gunpoint," the man told a 911 dispatcher after he captured the intruder, according to a recording released by the Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Office. "Get them out here fast. You don't get somebody out here quick, this guy's going to die."
David Gross said it when I took my first class, Joel said it when I took my refresher: <I>Don't talk too much!</i> "My name is Bruce Krafft. I'm at the corner of First and Second, please send an ambulance and police." <I><B>Then hang up</i></b> and call your lawyer. (You <I>do</i> have a lawyer on speed dial, right?)
_________________ If the Government does not obey the Constitution, then what is Treason? -- Unknown
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Dee
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:53 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:39 pm Posts: 533 Location: Mankato Area
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Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea for him to tell the dispatcher that he was the homeowner and he had a gun on the perp.
If it was me, I wouldn't want to police to react to "a man with a gun" negatively.
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:17 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Dee wrote: Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea for him to tell the dispatcher that he was the homeowner and he had a gun on the perp.
If it was me, I wouldn't want to police to react to "a man with a gun" negatively.
Regardless, adding the "...this guy's going to die" isn't a good idea.
-Mark
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