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 The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law....... 
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 Post subject: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Should this stand?
Quote:
Fla. court OKs force against retreating attackers
By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida's "stand-your-ground" law allows the use of deadly force for self-protection even if an attacker or intruder is in retreat, an appellate court said Wednesday.

A three-judge panel of the 1st District Court of Appeal issued that explanation for last month releasing Jimmy Hair from jail, where he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.

Hair, 28, was charged with fatally shooting Charles Harper, 26. Harper had forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger and then tussled with him. The car was parked outside a Tallahassee nightclub where Harper earlier had argued with the driver.

Sandi Copes, a spokeswoman for Attorney General Bill McCollum, said no decision had yet been made on whether to ask for a rehearing or possibly appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. She declined further comment.

A trial judge had refused to grant Hair "stand-your-ground" immunity due to conflicting testimony on whether Harper was being pulled out of the car by a friend when he was shot, but the appellate court said that didn't matter.

"The statute makes no exception from immunity when the victim is in retreat," the panel wrote in an unsigned, unanimous opinion.

The ruling appears to conflict with a 2nd District Court of Appeal decision in 2007 that denied immunity to Valrico resident David Heckman in case that also began with an argument. Heckman had been charged with aggravated battery for allegedly shooting Robert Carroll after Carroll left the garage attached to Heckman's home.

"We conclude that immunity does not apply because the victim was retreating," the 2nd District court wrote.

Hair's lawyer, Edward Bauer, said the opinions do not conflict because Carroll was not retreating when he was shot — his retreat was over.

"I know that's what they said, but that's not what happened," Bauer said. "I just think it was loose language."

National Rifle Association lobbyist Marion Hammer said Wednesday's ruling tracked the intent of the 2005 law her organization supported. She said just because someone's in retreat doesn't mean that person won't turn around and attack again.

"If you attack somebody be prepared to suffer the consequences," Hammer said.

The new law amended Florida's existing "Castle Doctrine" that allows people to use deadly force to defend themselves and others in their homes against the threat of death or great bodily harm.

It extends that right to public spaces including the street or a business and removes a duty to retreat before using deadly force.

State Attorney Willie Meggs, whose office attempted to prosecute Hair, said the ruling confirms the worst fears of the law's opponents.

"The next time this will come up is in a gang shootout," Meggs said.

Hair, who had a concealed weapons permit, claimed the gun went off accidentally when he tried to hit Harper with it. The appellate court also found the trial judge erred by finding the law didn't apply because the gun had gone off accidentally.

The Heckman ruling reversed a trial judge's decision to grant immunity. The case then went to trial and a jury acquitted Heckman.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/cont ... html?imw=Y

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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:27 pm 
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I'll settle for ME not having to retreat. I have no desire to shoot a man in the back. Let em run.


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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:27 am 
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You asked, "should this stand", as though you think it shouldn't.

I prefer to think of it this way- If you poke a hornets nest, do the bees stop attacking because you decided (too late) that it was a bad idea?

I think that thuggish behavior should have a *very* steep price tag attached. I wish that we lived in a place where the moment you decide to initiate contact with a would-be victim, all bets are off, and whatever you get, you're stuck with.

Fleeing people can still shoot, and they can also retaliate later.

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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:10 am 
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conflicting testimony on whether Harper was being pulled out of the car by a friend when he was shot,

He wasn't in retreat. He was still attacking; the only issue is precisely how successful he was being at attacking at that moment. If his friend was pulling him out, he was still attacking, just less successfully.

If his friend had already pulled him out and he was being held back 10 feet away, then it could be argued that he was no longer attacking (merely attempting to attack).

My overall take is that the news article is as accurate as typical news articles, and therefore I can only draw conclusions about hypotheticals that perhaps bear some resemblance to the actual underlying situation.


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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:58 am 
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Fixxer wrote:
You asked, "should this stand", as though you think it shouldn't.

I prefer to think of it this way- If you poke a hornets nest, do the bees stop attacking because you decided (too late) that it was a bad idea?

I think that thuggish behavior should have a *very* steep price tag attached. I wish that we lived in a place where the moment you decide to initiate contact with a would-be victim, all bets are off, and whatever you get, you're stuck with.

Fleeing people can still shoot, and they can also retaliate later.

No, that's not what I was thinking.

Seeing as though the court used this as an explanation (not a law yet), is why I asked if it should stand and eventually become law.

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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:32 am 
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when does it change from pulling away to get an arm free for a better punch, to grab a knife or gun, to retreating.

I think someone at a dead run away from you is very different from someone trying to break contact in hand to hand. Twisting to get a hand free, to reach for a weapon or just to get a better angle of attack is the same motions as trying to break contact and run away.


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 Post subject: Re: The latest on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law.......
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Fixxer wrote:
You asked, "should this stand", as though you think it shouldn't.

I prefer to think of it this way- If you poke a hornets nest, do the bees stop attacking because you decided (too late) that it was a bad idea?


I would think anyone carrying a gun has the intelligence and logic to hold themselves to a higher standard than the instinctual action of a hive of bees.

That said I think whether this guy was actually retreating out of the car or being pulled out by a friend is the key factor in this case. If he was being pulled out, well then the attack is continuing, it's just being impeded by the attacker's friend. If he was exiting the car, then you have a grey area. Was he exiting to run away? Or exiting to continue the attack from a better position.

And really if the gun went off "by accident"* then does the "stand your ground" law even apply?? Don't we then move onto the criteria for involuntary manslaughter?

* By accident my ass....you broke one of the four rules. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot.

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