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 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions 
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 Post subject: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:33 am 
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http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...ty-343110.html

4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions about law, safety

By Jeremy P. Kelley, Staff Writer 9:15 PM Sunday, October 11, 2009

DAYTON — In a recent four-week period, four local residents who were threatened by armed individuals opened fire, shooting the people who had allegedly drawn or fired the weapons first. One incident left a would-be robber dead after a homeowner shot and killed him inside his home.

It’s a recent trend that leaves police torn between public safety concerns and law enforcement objectives.

“If your life is genuinely in danger ... I would expect people to fight for their lives or their family’s lives,” said Dayton police Lt. Patrick Welsh, a former prosecuting attorney. “But we also encourage people to think, ‘What can I do to avoid being placed in that situation in the first place?’ ”

None of the four people who fired in the Dayton cases face any criminal charges. Ohio’s Castle Doctrine Law, which went into effect last year, allows residents to defend their homes and occupied vehicles from invaders by any means necessary, including lethal force.

That law does have limits. Greene County Sheriff’s officials this week called Phil McCall of Beavercreek Twp. “extremely reckless” after he fired at a person rummaging through his wife’s empty car in their driveway in a residential neighborhood. Prosecutors are still weighing whether to file charges in that case.

A local gun rights advocate said firearms training and common sense are crucial so gun owners avoid those types of situations, but not when it comes to self-defense.

“I’m not a mean person. I’m not a vigilante. But I’m getting tired of the criminals being turned into the victims,” said Billy Perry, a range safety officer and concealed-carry instructor at Vandalia Range and Armory. “People ask, ‘Did they need to shoot him?’ Well, did he need to break into my house? This is not as hard as people are making it out to be.”

Four cases 
in four weeks

According to information from Dayton Police reports, all four shooters said they were threatened by another individual with a firearm, then shot the person in self-defense.

• Aug. 28: Alphonso Hughes shot Ramon Austin in the leg on Fountain Ave. after Austin allegedly pointed an assault rifle at Hughes’ family outside their home. Hughes also grazed a man in a house across the street.

• Aug. 31: Facing two armed burglars inside his Huffman Avenue home, Bradley Fugate shot and killed one of the men, Danny L. Baker.

• Sept. 19: Bert Watts Sr., 72, shot Phillip Anderson from his car on Brooklyn Ave. after Anderson approached Watts, pointing an AK-47 assault rifle at him. Anderson was charged with aggravated robbery.

• Sept. 23: People in a house on Huffman Avenue returned fire and hit Richard Forbus Jr. after he fired into the home. Forbus has been charged with felonious assault.

Dayton police said they do not keep statistics on how often a citizen claims self-defense when firing a weapon.

“We had a hectic August of gun violence in general,” Welsh said. “I understand people’s perception that this is a lot (of self-defense claims), but to say four in four weeks is unusual? I don’t know.”

“A gun is 
not a panacea”

More than 34,000 new Ohio concealed-carry licenses were issued in the first six months of 2009 — more than were issued in any full year except for 2004. Even with required training, some worry about a “Wild West” attitude toward defending homes or property.

“There can be a false sense of security that ‘I have a gun and I know how to use it,’ ” Welsh said. “But ask people who have firearms training — in a controlled environment, with no ticking clock, no stress, do you hit the bull’s-eye every time? No. So what makes you think in a high-stress situation that you’re going to be Wyatt Earp?

“Analyze the situation,” Welsh added. “In a car, can you lock the door, step on the gas and take off? At home, do you have a reasonable avenue of retreat? The first response should not be ‘I’m going to shoot my way out of this.’ A gun is not a panacea.”

Perry said many of the gun shop’s customers mention home invasions as a reason for buying a weapon. Welsh contends that’s a very small risk, saying in most cases where someone ends up firing, there are other factors behind the scenes — illegal behavior, associating with criminals, escalating problems with neighbors — that contribute to the situation.

He said the fatal shooting Aug. 31 on Huffman Avenue was the rare exception where the shooter truly was minding his own business. And even that homeowner, Fugate, didn’t celebrate his decision to fire.

“I ain’t no hero, and I’m broken up about it,” Fugate said the day after the shooting. “I did what I had to do.”

Perry, an ex-Marine, said it’s a thought-provoking issue, but he knows which side he falls on.

“I don’t know how I would react, but I do know that I’ve had a lot of training,” he said. “Just because you have (a gun) doesn’t mean you have to use it. But I would much rather have the gun and not need it than the other way around.”

Said Welsh, “If you’ve gone through CCW and you’re obeying the law, nobody is going to fault you for defending yourself (in a life-threatening situation). But look how many police are killed in the line of duty, and they’re well-armed and well-trained. It’s hard to say citizens should make that choice. People think it’s a simple decision, but it’s not.”

Contact this reporter at jkelley@DaytonDailyNews.com.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:45 am 
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My favorite:
Quote:
“People ask, ‘Did they need to shoot him?’ Well, did he need to break into my house?


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:55 am 
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Quote:
• Aug. 28: Alphonso Hughes shot Ramon Austin in the leg on Fountain Ave. after Austin allegedly pointed an assault rifle at Hughes’ family outside their home. Hughes also grazed a man in a house across the street.

• Aug. 31: Facing two armed burglars inside his Huffman Avenue home, Bradley Fugate shot and killed one of the men, Danny L. Baker.

• Sept. 19: Bert Watts Sr., 72, shot Phillip Anderson from his car on Brooklyn Ave. after Anderson approached Watts, pointing an AK-47 assault rifle at him. Anderson was charged with aggravated robbery.

• Sept. 23: People in a house on Huffman Avenue returned fire and hit Richard Forbus Jr. after he fired into the home. Forbus has been charged with felonious assault.


I would be very interested in reviewing the totality of circumstances in each case, particularly #1 and #4.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Quote:
• Aug. 28: Alphonso Hughes shot Ramon Austin in the leg on Fountain Ave. after Austin allegedly pointed an assault rifle at Hughes’ family outside their home. Hughes also grazed a man in a house across the street.

• Aug. 31: Facing two armed burglars inside his Huffman Avenue home, Bradley Fugate shot and killed one of the men, Danny L. Baker.

• Sept. 19: Bert Watts Sr., 72, shot Phillip Anderson from his car on Brooklyn Ave. after Anderson approached Watts, pointing an AK-47 assault rifle at him. Anderson was charged with aggravated robbery.

• Sept. 23: People in a house on Huffman Avenue returned fire and hit Richard Forbus Jr. after he fired into the home. Forbus has been charged with felonious assault.



Sounds like occupational hazards for the BG to me. :shock: Maybe there should be a OSHA course they can take before they embark on their nefarious pursuits :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Scott Hughes wrote:
Quote:
• Aug. 28: Alphonso Hughes shot Ramon Austin in the leg on Fountain Ave. after Austin allegedly pointed an assault rifle at Hughes’ family outside their home. Hughes also grazed a man in a house across the street.

• Aug. 31: Facing two armed burglars inside his Huffman Avenue home, Bradley Fugate shot and killed one of the men, Danny L. Baker.

• Sept. 19: Bert Watts Sr., 72, shot Phillip Anderson from his car on Brooklyn Ave. after Anderson approached Watts, pointing an AK-47 assault rifle at him. Anderson was charged with aggravated robbery.

• Sept. 23: People in a house on Huffman Avenue returned fire and hit Richard Forbus Jr. after he fired into the home. Forbus has been charged with felonious assault.



Sounds like occupational hazards for the BG to me. :shock: Maybe there should be a OSHA course they can take before they embark on their nefarious pursuits :roll:


I'm not going to spill any tears for the goblins. And I am all in favor of self-defense. But the guy across the street had a reasonable expectation not to have been shot, during the process.

That you are responding to a deadly threat does not obsolve you of your responsibility for where those bullets go. Cooper's laws still apply.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:53 pm 
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I couldn't shoot someone for rumaging thru my car. Poor decision IMO


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:14 pm 
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“What can I do to avoid being placed in this situation in the first place”, well I guess I have no business being in my own home. This question should be asked of the person breaking into someone’s home, not the victim. ““I’m not a mean person. I’m not a vigilante. But I’m getting tired of the criminals being turned into the victims,” said Billy Perry, a range safety officer and concealed-carry instructor at Vandalia Range and Armory. “People ask, ‘Did they need to shoot him?’ Well, did he need to break into my house? This is not as hard as people are making it out to be.” This pretty much sums it up for me too.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Pat Cannon wrote:
My favorite:
Quote:
“People ask, ‘Did they need to shoot him?’ Well, did he need to break into my house?


+1,000,000

#1 thing that crooks fear is a citizen that is armed and knows how to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:13 am 
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Sounds to me like things are working like they should! Bad guy threatens the life of an innocent person, bad guy gets shot/killed. Works for me.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:02 pm 
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with the way the economy is im pretty sure they will see more shootings.

im pretty sure it will be on the rise here to if it isnt allready. the more people that lose their jobs, the more that will turn to crime. its the truth, and it happens that way. i wonder why some of the reporters and leos dont understand that.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:49 am 
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Received from an instructor. Wise words for criminals:


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 Post subject: Re: 4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Ever wonder why is society more worried about the safety of criminals when they should be more concerned about the victims? :shock:


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