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 Powder position and squib loads 
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 Post subject: Powder position and squib loads
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Here's the problem: Several times now I've had squib loads -- bullet stuck in bore -- with a .38 Special. I'm following the book: The range, with Unique, is 3.9 to 5.1 grains behind a 158-gr. JHP bullet.

I at first thought the trouble might have been that I was flirting with very light loads, down around that minimum of 3.9 grains. So I upped it to 4.8 grains.

And still, from time to time, I get a bullet stuck in the bore.

The only idea I have is that maybe powder position is significant. That load doesn't fill up a .38 Special case very well, and I am aiming downwards at an angle of about 45 degrees from the horizontal. I'm just function-firing the gun into thick, soft dirt at the farm. The recoil from each shot would tend to shake the powder even more down towards the forward end of the case.

I asked John at Gunstop, and he does not think powder position is the culprit. He has no idea what the cause might be -- which might be his polite way of saying that I'm getting my measurements wrong but he doesn't wany to say so.

Any other ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: Powder position and squib loads
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Dave Matheny wrote:
Here's the problem: Several times now I've had squib loads -- bullet stuck in bore -- with a .38 Special. I'm following the book: The range, with Unique, is 3.9 to 5.1 grains behind a 158-gr. JHP bullet.

I at first thought the trouble might have been that I was flirting with very light loads, down around that minimum of 3.9 grains. So I upped it to 4.8 grains.

And still, from time to time, I get a bullet stuck in the bore.

The only idea I have is that maybe powder position is significant. That load doesn't fill up a .38 Special case very well, and I am aiming downwards at an angle of about 45 degrees from the horizontal. I'm just function-firing the gun into thick, soft dirt at the farm. The recoil from each shot would tend to shake the powder even more down towards the forward end of the case.

I asked John at Gunstop, and he does not think powder position is the culprit. He has no idea what the cause might be -- which might be his polite way of saying that I'm getting my measurements wrong but he doesn't wany to say so.

Any other ideas?
The only thing I can think of, assuming that you're measuring even vaguely accurately (and I bet you're more than vaguely accurate) is that the combination of the powder position, the crimp, and the primer is forcing the bullet off the case before enough of the powder ignites.

The second step to test this hypothesis would be to try again, changing only the crimp to a tighter one, or the primer to a more powerful one. (The first step, of course, would be to consult with somebody who knows a lot more about reloading than I do, to determine where doing that would be on the utterly safe through manifestly suicidal axis.)

ETA: I can't see how the powder not filling the case well could be significant; the .38 Spl is fairly famous for having a whole lot of powder space in relation to the tolerable max pressures.

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Last edited by joelr on Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Just a thought, maybe double check the actual bullet diameter with a micrometer. Maybe they are a bit oversize or they are on the high side of tolerance and your bore is on the tight end of tolerance. Probably would never notice this with full factory loads.

The only bullets I can think of that would be close but slightly too big by design would be the 9mm Makarov or 38 S&W.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Need a little more information.

1. Are you using a progressive press that charges the case with powder?

2. Are you using a powder measure that you pull the lever and it drops the charge into the case that you are holding?

3. Are you measuring each charge individually?

With either #2 or #3, do you start with the cases in a loading block with the rim up or the mouth up?

I don't really think it is the powder charge of Unique, although Bullseye may be a better choice for a light target load. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:03 pm 
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My first guess would be that there is a problem with your powder measure.
My test would be to individually weigh about a dozen charges into prepared cases and then seat and crimp the bullets, then retest.

Measuring your bullets is a good idea, but if they came from a fresh factory box, I would bet they are within half a thou of spec.

Primer handling could be another culprit, a little finger oil in the primer cup, though it usually kills the primer stone dead, or old incorrectly stored primers may be a possibility.

Maybe Pinnacle has some more ideas :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:17 pm 
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I too would second the use of bullseye, the other comment I ask is it all one box of primers? If you are positive it is not your loading technique, try buying another brand or lot of primers.

Unique is just that unique, it works with almost all calibers, from shot gun to most pistols, and with a wide range of bullet weights and loads.

I have shot a couple thousand loads very similar to yours and never once had an issue with the powder. I have with another powder had an issue with a lot of primers, which would work with ZIP or bullseye, but not reliably with others, I think it just did not have enough "pop" to light it off well. Perhaps your pistol just not hit the primer hard enough to give reliable ignition. If it is smith, is the tension screw on the grip strap tightened down?

I would also look at the insides of the rounds that you said squibed, are they dirty on the inside? I once had friend who was having squib troubles and finally he had one while I was there, I grabbed the pistol and opened it and retrieved the "defective" casing, it was bright and shiny, just like it had come from the tumbler. In other words, no powder.

I do not know the machine you are loading on, nor do I know your practices. If you are loading on a progressive, make sure you are not false pulling, or somehow not getting that lever all the way done on the pull stroke. If loading on a single stage, make sure you use a loading block, charge each case with powder and then visually examine each and every case for the same powder level.

On my press, a dillion 550, I added a light so as I could visually check each round every time.

We all have made mistakes in reloading. It happens, consider your self lucky that you have not bulged the barrel or blown the cylinder with a squib.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:33 pm 
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I like the idea that there's something wrong with the primers or the powder that is inhibiting proper combustion. You might want to try a different batch of Unique or a different box of primers (presumably fresh new stuff from the store). And use a different scale to verify your powder measure is throwing the right charge.

You could test your crimps by putting one of your loads in the cylinder and filling the rest of the cylinder with factory loads. Fire all 5 factory loads and then extract your unfired handload and inspect for OAL variations. My guess is you'd have to have the bullet nearly falling out to squib it.

The phenomenon of "overflash" (big case volume, small powder volume, primer flashes "over" powder) seems a little fishy to me. Why would so many load manuals have these barely-fills-the-case loads listed if it was a real risk? Also there seem to be many people in various reloading forums who have tested this by deliberately loading these types of loads, pointing the gun at the ground and then firing it at sharp downward angles without being able to reproduce it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:28 pm 
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The powder position for sure is not the problem, when the primer ignites it will find the powder in that casing and ignite it. You certainly should be able to find the answer on the very next squib. If the bullet is in the barrel than the unburned power will still be in the casing or cylinder/barrel if it didn't ignite. This still leaves the question as to why it didn't ignite but it answers whether there is powder. Personally if I ever have a squib load I would throw the container of powder away as well as the packet of primers. I carry with reloaded ammunition so I can't afford to be worrying about squib loads.
I also scale measure every round of my carry ammo but not every round of my range ammo.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:58 pm 
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Is there a chance that you are using a really light crimp - perhaps the start pressures are too low and you are not getting a complete burn

Remember that even the primer has the power to lodge a bullet in the bore - therefore - perhaps youare not burning the powder.

Just a thought.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:56 pm 
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LOTS of good ideas here. It might get confusing to try to answer them all individually, so here's a summary:

--I use an RCBS turret press, doing each step separately.

--I measure this way: First five loads (on an RCBS scale) get measured, then every other load for the next 10 or so, then every fourth load or so. I do accept a slightly over or under load. Aiming for 4.8 grains, for example, I accept 4.7 and 4.9 as okay. I want good function as opposed to great accuracy.

--The primers are Winchester. I do occasionally turn one over with my fingertips when they don't automatically turn bottom-up in the shaker tray. I also seat them properly -- flush with the case head -- in a hand-held primer-seater deal.

--Two kinds of bullets: one is 158-GR. JHP, the other 158-gr. JFP. Most of the squibs have been with the JFPs, though that might be a coincidence. Both measure out at about 157.7 to 157.5 grains actual weight. Diameter of both is .357, occasionally .358.

--Not much of a crimp. Maybe that's the problem. But I just compared some factory ammo to mine, and both measure .175 across the mouth.

--When I have all the filled cases mouth-up in the loading block, I go down the line inserting a wooden dowel in each one, making sure that a fingertip just touches each case mouth as the dowel rests on the powder. This is not an accuracy test, just a crude check to ensure that each case has *about* one measure of powder, not zero or double. I like this step a lot because it's tactile, not visual.

--I don't mess around with powder. It goes from the tightly-sealed flask to the hopper, which is always capped, and from there into the case.

Looking this over, I see several possibilities.

*** The cases: I use any old case that comes to hand. So, some might be holding the bullets more and less tightly. I can sense big differences in cases during the expansion-decap stroke.

*** The crimp: I just crimp them enough so the round slides easily into the chamber. Maybe should be more?

*** The Powder: Although the flask is sealed and the hopper capped, we do get fluctuating humidity -- although, if that were a big factor, I think everbody'd be having squibs, not just me.

Now I'm going to go back and re-read all your observations.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:57 pm 
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Just a thought -

Now without seeing your reloads - and not knowing everything that there is to know about reloading - I tend to think that since you are checking all of your cases for charge (I like your tactile method!) and you state that there is little if any crimp on the bullets - and this is a problem now and again -

Give em a good roll crimp by trying the following. This MAY be the culprit..

1. Seat the bullet by turning the die down by hand in the press with the seater stem all the way down - slowly a stroke and a 1.8 turn or less of the die each time until the desired depth of seat is reached - the the cannelure - or the crimping groove...

2. Back the seater stem out all the way and turn the die in with the ram up and the "Loaded" round in the die until you cannot turn it any more without using considerable force.

3. Back the ram down and turn the die in 1/16 of a turn and raise the ram - you should feel resistance at the top of the stroke...

4. Examine the round to see of the case mouth is slightly pressed into the cannelure or the ring...

5. Repeat until a good roll crimp is achieved - and chamber check the round to ensure proper feeding into the cylinder.

6. Assuming that a good crimp has been achieved - lock the die in this position - raise the ram withthe loaded round on the shellholder - and then turn in the seater until it stops against the bullet tip - this is a dead length and load the next round and make sure that the depth is good - sometimes this is actually a little short and you may need to tweak the adjustment a tad (technical measurement of distance - slightly more or less than a "hair")

7. Load to beat the band.

Be sure to try this - and also be sure that the lengths of your casings are the same - you will get an inconsistent crimp and perhaps a buldge of the cases are too long by just even a hair.

A hair (or Tad) too short in a revolver for the case is OK - too long is asking for problems. Pistol cases dont grow all that much but they do get tired. Cull out the bad ones.

Remember that Smokeless powder does not burn all that well at normal atmospheric pressure - it requires a high pressure to burn properly and gain the max potential energy that it has. Start pressure is critical.

In an auto case - 9 - 40 - 45 I use the LEE Factory carbide Crimp Die - this has an infinutely adjustable taper crimp (makes for good ammunition) and 100% Chamber size is assured - this is a great tool for an auto - I am not sure that there is such a thing for a revolver without checking. There may be a die like that from LEE for a Revolver Caliber.

Tell me if this helps.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:29 am 
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You can get the Lee factory crimp die for .38spl- I have one.
Pretty much available for all pistol caliber- at least for the common ones.
I don't reload that caliber much anymore, but when I did, never had a squib or mis-fire. I used Bullseye powder, Winchester primers, and 158g. LSWC bullets. I also loaded to the lighter side of the recommeded powder amount.

I'm a firm advocate of that Lee die.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:36 am 
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If a loose crimp is the problem, do fire 5 rounds of factory ammo with one of your reloads in the sixth charge hole. Don't fire your reload, but measure the OAL against what it was before firing.

If the OAL varies, you don't have enough crimp and the bullets will dislodge during firing. This will work even better if the first 5 are +P or .357 mags, since your loads will be subject to even greater intertial forces from firing.

It's hard to measure revolver roll crimp since the case mouth is supposed to sort of bend into the cannelure. Or at least I've never been able to measure it, it's been visual inspection combined with letting one ride the cylinder with known good rounds.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:46 pm 
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mobocracy wrote:
If a loose crimp is the problem, do fire 5 rounds of factory ammo with one of your reloads in the sixth charge hole. Don't fire your reload, but measure the OAL against what it was before firing.

If the OAL varies, you don't have enough crimp and the bullets will dislodge during firing. This will work even better if the first 5 are +P or .357 mags, since your loads will be subject to even greater intertial forces from firing.

It's hard to measure revolver roll crimp since the case mouth is supposed to sort of bend into the cannelure. Or at least I've never been able to measure it, it's been visual inspection combined with letting one ride the cylinder with known good rounds.


Revolver roll crimp is one of those subjective things. How much is too much? I dont know that for sure.

How about - Just enough....


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:20 pm 
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Pinnacle wrote:
Revolver roll crimp is one of those subjective things. How much is too much? I dont know that for sure.

How about - Just enough....


Not so much that the case cuts the jacket or known safe charges cause cases to stick in the charge holes..


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