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 Freedom Arms loses law suit. 
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 Post subject: Freedom Arms loses law suit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:58 am 
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http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2007/06/02/news/wyoming/9590f74f4d2ce532872572ed0081ff36.txt


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:23 am 
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Unbelievable..... :roll: :(


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:10 am 
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Quote:
The complaint said on Sept. 9, 2003, Taylor was horseback riding with friends near Rock River when the accident occurred.

While riding, Taylor was carrying the Freedom Arms .454 caliber revolver in a holster on his right thigh. The complaint said Taylor was wearing a heavy leather coat and returned to his camping trailer when it started to rain.

The complaint said while Taylor was taking off his coat in the trailer, a part of the coat caught the hammer of the gun, causing it to discharge a bullet into his lower right leg. "It blew a 5- by 8-inch hole out of the front side of his leg," Spence said.

Headline should be: "Bonehead plays cowboy; shoots leg off" :roll:

Quote:
Spence said experts for the plaintiff said all revolvers should be designed with transfer bars to ensure that the only way to discharge the weapon is by "fully cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger."

If the above sequence of events is true, a transfer bar would have done nothing to help this idiot. It sounds like to me his coat cocked the hammer far enough to cause the cylinder to rotate a live round into firing position, then dropped the hammer onto it without coming to a fully cocked position, but far enough to detonate the primer.

Quote:
Baker said the company sells "quite a few" of the Model 38 handguns. He said the gun has a "manual" safety and the use of the gun is outlined in the manual.

WTF is this guy talking about? A manual safety on a single-action revolver?

<EDIT> After reading the Freedom Arms Model 83 Manual it looks like the thing does have a transfer bar.

Who knows WTF happened? The press is totally unreliable in these matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:34 am 
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Quote:
HAMMER SAFETY POSITION - In this position, the
hammer is slightly back and away from the receiver, and you
will see a slight gap between the hammer and receiver. (See
Figure 5)
When the hammer is in this position, the safety bar is
physically positioned between the hammer and receiver to
prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin. When the
hammer is in the Hammer Safety Position, pulling the trigger
has no effect.


Quote:
5. NEVER HANDLE YOUR FREEDOM ARMS®
REVOLVER WITH A LIVE CARTRIDGE IN THE
CYLINDER CHAMBER WHICH IS IN LINE WITH
THE BARREL AND FIRING PIN, UNTIL YOU
ARE FULLY PREPARED TO SHOOT AT YOUR
TARGET. IN THE FIELD NEVER CARRY THE
REVOLVER WITH A LIVE CARTRIDGE IN THE
CHAMBER WHICH IS IN LINE WITH THE
BARREL AND FIRING PIN.
Quote:
FIRED POSITION - In this position, the hammer is all the
way down against the receiver and firing pin. (See Figure 2)
When the hammer is in this position, pulling the trigger has
no effect. CAUTION: IF THE HAMMER IS IN THE
FIRED POSITION AND A LIVE CARTRIDGE IS IN LINE
WITH THE BARREL AND FIRING PIN, THE
REVOLVER WILL FIRE IF IT IS DROPPED, OR IF THE
HAMMER IS OTHERWISE STRUCK, WITH
SUFFICIENT FORCE.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:21 pm 
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According to the Manual, it may fire if dropped. So, the manufacturer was probably sued on the grounds that the product, even though it came with a warning, was "Unreasonably Dangerous".

It would be easy for the Plaintiff to show that other revolvers don't fire that way, and then argue that Freedom Arms product was therefore more dangerous, because they could have made it differently.

Kind of unfair because Freedom doesn't know just what happend, it was probably cocked "all the way". But the Plaintiff's theory of the case would have been pretty easy to explain to a jury after the fact.

Hopefully they had product liability insurance.

Plaintiff was found 50% at fault, probably thanks to the instruction manual. So they save $300,000.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:30 pm 
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Am I crazy, or didn't most actual cowboy carry holsters cover the hammer, as well as the trigger?

More from the manual:

Quote:
For carrying the Freedom Arms® revolver, select a
holster which securely holds and protect the revolver.
We recommend using a Freedom Arms® holster or other
similar top quality holster equipped with a retention
strap to hold the firearm securely in place. The strap has
a definite purpose; always keep the strap engaged.


And a link to the Freedom Arms Holsters page: http://www.freedomarms.com/leather.htm

Seems to me that this accident would not have happened had the revolver been carried in a holster that protected the hammer, as the manual recommends, and as do all the holsters manufactured by the defendent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:39 pm 
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DeanC wrote:

<EDIT> After reading the Freedom Arms Model 83 Manual it looks like the thing does have a transfer bar.

Who knows WTF happened? The press is totally unreliable in these matters.


My understanding is that they are made with the transfer bar safety now, but not originally - BY DESIGN. Which is why I'm flabbergasted that the jury could find the design flawed....


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:11 pm 
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jdege wrote:
Am I crazy, or didn't most actual cowboy carry holsters cover the hammer, as well as the trigger?

More from the manual:

Quote:
For carrying the Freedom Arms® revolver, select a
holster which securely holds and protect the revolver.
We recommend using a Freedom Arms® holster or other
similar top quality holster equipped with a retention
strap to hold the firearm securely in place. The strap has
a definite purpose; always keep the strap engaged.


And a link to the Freedom Arms Holsters page: http://www.freedomarms.com/leather.htm

Seems to me that this accident would not have happened had the revolver been carried in a holster that protected the hammer, as the manual recommends, and as do all the holsters manufactured by the defendent.

I've never seen a western holster that covered the hammer - most don't even cover the trigger. The equivilant of a thumb break is a leather thong that goes over or under the hammer to hold the gun in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:12 pm 
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Am glad I carry a 1911. I am living testimony that they are idiot proof… :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:03 am 
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mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote:
jdege wrote:
Am I crazy, or didn't most actual cowboy carry holsters cover the hammer, as well as the trigger?

I've never seen a western holster that covered the hammer - most don't even cover the trigger.

The Freedom Arms holsters have a strap over the hammer, and the manual stresses the importance of using the strap.

Hollywood's speed rigs didn't cover much, and neither do some of the rigs used by the Cowboy Action Shooters. But I was under the impression that these bore little relationship to those that were actually used in period.

And when I do a bit of web searching, the holsters I'm seeing most definitely cover both hammer and trigger.

http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0006180.shtml
Image

http://www.kramerleather.com/productDetail.cfm?productID=66&categoryID=33
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:11 am 
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jdege wrote:
mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote:
jdege wrote:
Am I crazy, or didn't most actual cowboy carry holsters cover the hammer, as well as the trigger?

I've never seen a western holster that covered the hammer - most don't even cover the trigger.

The Freedom Arms holsters have a strap over the hammer, and the manual stresses the importance of using the strap.

Hollywood's speed rigs didn't cover much, and neither do some of the rigs used by the Cowboy Action Shooters. But I was under the impression that these bore little relationship to those that were actually used in period.

And when I do a bit of web searching, the holsters I'm seeing most definitely cover both hammer and trigger.

http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0006180.shtml
Image

http://www.kramerleather.com/productDetail.cfm?productID=66&categoryID=33
Image


Granted... "Except for Calvery style holsters" which generally have a cover which covers the hammer. Sorry - I didn't include this style of holsters with "cowboy style"

I'm wasn't trying to say you can't find western style holsters which cover the trigger, but "many" don't - Assuming since most (all?) are Single action it is not as much of a concern since only one legged cowboys put a single action pistol in the holster with the hammer back... :twisted: "Cocked and Locked" was not in the lexicon nor the technology yet...

Mostly-


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:51 pm 
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mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote:
Assuming since most (all?) are Single action it is not as much of a concern since only one legged cowboys put a single action pistol in the holster with the hammer back... :twisted: "Cocked and Locked" was not in the lexicon nor the technology yet...

The point at issue was not carrying with hammer cocked, but carrying with hammer down on a loaded chamber. That is also dangerous, in a handgun that lacks a firing pin safety.

And it was also unheard of, in the day.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:39 pm 
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Yes - Wasn't the empty pipe used for holding enough money to bury a man?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:52 pm 
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Carrying with hammer down on an empty chamber would not have saved this cowboy.
Quote:
while Taylor was taking off his coat in the trailer, a part of the coat caught the hammer of the gun, causing it to discharge a bullet into his lower right leg
Cocking the hammer would have brought a loaded chamber in line with the hammer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:36 pm 
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I still don't quite understand how this happen. I have 2 Freedom Arms and played around with trying to figure out how the hammer could come back and drop without pulling the trigger. I can't make it happen, you pull the hammer back even part way and it hits the first safety notch and to drop the hammer from there I have pull the trigger, at the same time pull the hammer back some more to drop the hammer. The other thing is, have you ever tried to cock a revolver when it is in a holster? When pulling the hammer back, the cylinder has to turn to bring the next cartridge in line, but when I do mine, it doesn't want to cock because the cylinder binds against the leather and does not allow it to rotate very well, almost not at all.

The way it could happen is one of the following. He was carrying it with a round under the hammer, the hammer resting and making contact with the primer instead of the hammer on the first catch. With the hammer resting on the primer, a sharp blow to the hammer would ignite the primer. Anyone using a handgun for hunting would have it in a holster that has a strap to keep it in the holster as to not loose it and these straps when fastened don't usually allow the hammer to cock back. The other is playing cowboy and doing a fast draw with a slicker on, finger on the trigger and a wet thumb slipping off the hammer, now that I can understand.


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