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 Legal big game cartridges: MN 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Not that I want to do it, but this means I can use my Ruger Blackhawk 30 Carbine revolver in pistol zones.

If the bullet doesn't get the deer, the muzzle blast will.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:16 am 
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Lenny7 wrote:
1911fan wrote:
Also note that 30 carbine is now a legal deer round, despite a lot of evidence to the lack of effectiveness on deer sized game.


What I find odd is that this caliber was added to the approved list just last year, or perhaps it was 2005. I just can't imagine that there was a big groundswell of popular support for adding this cartridge. I wonder what the impetus was.

As a side note, my dad fought in the Korean War. Since he was in an engineering battalion he was issued the M1 carbine. He said after the first time he used it in combat he "traded up" to the M1 Garand because the carbine just didn't have the stopping power.

If you ever want to read about one hellacious battle, read "East of Chosin" by Roy Applemam.

Sorry to stray off topic...


I've heard the DNR is concerned about the declining number of hunters. It's tough to outfit a 12 to 16 year old with a reasonably priced shotgun and teach them shoot precisely. It's usually too much gun.

A carbine or an SKS would be a perfect solution. The right size, weight and real accurate for 100 yds. (Set up a tree stand for a 30 yd shot, quartering away so they get a deer.)

The problem will be that they have taught us that rifles are not safe; they had no data to back that up either. A study In PA apparently refutes the rifle/shotgun safety theory.

The carbine got a bad rap from Korea, they tried to make it a battle rifle and gave it to too many soldiers, who should have had an M1 rifle (which was heavy to hump.)

The wisdom of the day said a 30.06 bullet would always go FIVE MILES. (I learned that in DNR gun training in 1959.) With 4 farms per square mile , then, and no deer hunting tradition in southern Minnesota at the time, the DNR recomended shotguns.

Shotguns were not accurate then, deer were driven, the MN River Valley sounded like a battle zone on the one "deer day" and the drivers shot each other, and my Mom forbade me to deer hunt. (There were almost NO DEER in the south until the 50's.)

People now hunt from elevated stands with shotguns and pistols that do have greater ranges, but the bullets hit the deer or the ground. And I would bet that 95% of the shots are under 50 yards.

The 30 carbine is good for "shotgun ranges", but may not drop the deer on the spot, and you might have to trail it into the neighbors field. Same problem with a 410 shotgun, which is maybe the only gun that fits your 12 yr old daughter.

A United States M1 .30 Carbine is more politically acceptable than an SKS but pretty expensive now, but a still a good investment, and it can be handed down to the next generation.Rifles need to be legal statewide so we have more hunters. If somebody learns to shoot, they can learn the limits of their gun, and make clean safe shots.

Please support these changes.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:14 am 
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The only thing that worries me about the .30 carbine is some fudd using milsurp FMJ ammo. Of course, we have the same problem with the SKS hunters, too.

Loaded with a proper bullet, the .30 carbine should just as effective as a 357 magnum with a similar weight bullet.

These would be awesome in a .30 carbine: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... t=22164010

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:48 am 
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Excellent points Dick. Some DNR field officers are receptive to conversation about these subjects and do pass on the ideas/sentiments about many of the restrictions that have crept into the regs books over the years. Keep writing the DNR about these subjects in polite messages. Most of the replies are one liners, saying that is not allowed, but now and then you get one that says, they like it and will pass it along.

As DeanC showed above, check out Cor-Bons hunting ammo line. They make some very effective loads for a wide variety of calibers. Especially for hunting, where you only need enough of that load to dial in your POA and for the hunting trip. With semi-autos spring changes and/or buffers are generally required to tune your firearm to these max loads.
It is an amusing/interesting paradigm as to what constitutes enough load to effectively take a whitetail. According to some articles there should be a lot of game spontaneously coming back to life these days.


Design: 150gr Jacketed soft point
Muzzle velocity: 2300 fps
Muzzle energy: 1762 ft/lb

This 7.62x39 Cor-Bon Hunter would definitely make the SKS effective.
BTW it cycles perfectly in both my Yugo and Russian models. I did have to use a recoil buffer with the Yugo.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:04 am 
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I think any accurate shot from anything will kill a deer. But it's tough to trail them very far, especially if your hunting land is small. I'm a poor tracker, I'd like to use a 30.06 at fifty yards for that reason. But a 12 ga is good enough. Kids can't really handle either one.

I think an SKS is as good as a 30.30, and no real kick.

Hunting would be more fun if you could use what you want. And we'd have extra hunters.IMHO.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:51 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
I think any accurate shot from anything will kill a deer.


Yes.

I won't go into details and I wasn't involved, but .22LR can do the job in 1 shot.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Well yeah, a .22 or the like will kill most anything, I killed a 1100 pound steer once with a .22. but thats with its head chained to the fence post

The problem is we as somewhat more astute shooters, understand that just because a round is legal, does not make it ideal. If all hunters would execute the self control to know that shooting a .30 carbine or a 357 mag carbine means you are limited to well under a 100 yards for sure thing kills and would be able to mark out what a hundred yards would really be in the woods..

The problem is not will it kill, but will it kill cleanly at probable ranges for its use. .22's have killed brown bears, big bulls, and lots of deer. but only under set circumstance and I would be willing to say, has wounded nearly as many or even more than were harvested.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
The carbine got a bad rap from Korea, they tried to make it a battle rifle and gave it to too many soldiers, who should have had an M1 rifle (which was heavy to hump.)


True enough. If you read "US Infantry Weapons in Combat : Personal Experiences from World War II and Korea" you read about almost as many soldier who preferred the carbine as you do those who prefer the Garand.

My understanding is that M1 Carbines were meant as a replacement for sidearms and were standard issue for service troops, many of whom found themselves in battle.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:07 pm 
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The 30 carbine was a legal caliber in Mn 25-30 yrs ago and then even thou it met the length cal requirements it was put on an outlawed list, When asked why the reply from the DNR was basically because we said so. The 30s use in a military use when issued fmj is quite like the 9mm as opposed to expanding ammo in either 9mm self defense or 30 hunting.
The 30 IMHO is fine for deer if one stays within 50-75 yd limit like any other caliber try pushing the limit and success is going to be reduced.
The use of the 12ga slug for use on deer is good within its limits is it a 150-200yd gun? NO!!!! And neither is the 30


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:24 am 
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223rem and other 224diameter centerfire are all now legal.

Mike


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:34 am 
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One problem with digging out the .223 or .22-250 and loading up some heavy for caliber cartridges is that they do not stabilize very well out of a typical varmint barrel.
While dialing in a scope on my friends .223 we produced several 5 shot groups right around 3/4" using 50 and 55 grain bullets. Nothing like the benchrest 6mm guys, but we were happy with the rifle.
We then threw some 77 grain Matchkings at the paper to check POI changes.
Wow, if you could call it a pattern, it was about 4" or so and they were all tumbling and hitting sideways. I am not sure what velocity he was loaded at.

Please dial in your scope and rifle with the ammo you are going to hunt with.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:41 am 
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Has more to do with twist rate based off projectile length.

The 77 gr and larger all need a 1:9 or better twist rate barrel.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:43 am 
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farmerj wrote:
Has more to do with twist rate based off projectile length.

The 77 gr and larger all need a 1:9 or better twist rate barrel.


More than what?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:47 am 
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KonaSeven wrote:
farmerj wrote:
Has more to do with twist rate based off projectile length.

The 77 gr and larger all need a 1:9 or better twist rate barrel.


More than what?


The tumbling has more to do with an unstabilized bullet. It's not spinning fast enough. hence, you are seeing keyholes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:02 pm 
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Yes, it was an older Remington 700. I think they used a 1:12 twist.

ETA: I see from their website they still use a 1:12 in the 700.

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Last edited by KonaSeven on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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