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 The TCCarry Qual 
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 Post subject: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:10 am 
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Just to put this in one place, here's what we do in the TCCarry class for the shooting qualification; as I may have written elsewhere, I think it's modest, but sufficient. Feel free to use it, or not, as you please -- it's mine, and like several others, derived from the old DNR qual that lots of PDs used to insist on before the change in 2003.

Transtar II target
(my preference; others are just fine, honest) is mounted at fifteen feet. Student loads fifteen rounds (they can load more, if they want to, but I'm only going to score the first fifteen) or fewer. Ideally, they've got a five-shot revolver, and load five, but that's ideal, not required.

Student fires fifteen shots, reloading as necessary

The target is then moved out to twenty-one feet (at an outdoor range, we can do that by having them step back six feet, if we can arrange for that to be safe, but I do most of my quals indoors), and another fifteen shots are fired.

Safety violations -- finger on trigger, gun pointed not quite directly downrange -- are corrected. Shots fired starting with a finger on the trigger score zero. Pointing a gun at a person is a flunk. Period. (It hasn't happened, but I guess it could. I'd grab a gun to stop that from happening, but I haven't ever had to. Thought I might, a couple of times.)

Ideally, they've loaded it six times (five times, if they're using a six-shooter), but it's always at least twice and usually more. They've also had to score at least 70%; the vast majority manage it in their first try. If they're using a semiauto -- which is fine -- they can preload as many mags as they care to, and I'll even help, although I won't load a mag for somebody who can't do it for himself or herself*. If, say, you're going to use a Glock, you've got to be able to put the cartridges in the mag with the bullets facing forward.

Now, to get through that -- and it isn't a lot -- they've got to be able to load a gun at least twice, reloading it at least once, probably more. They've demonstrated that they can practice safely, and that they can make a reasonable score at what are, basically, preposterously long self-defense but utterly reasonable practicing distances. Ideally, they don't shoot as well at the qual as they did in practicing before it; the idea there is to learn that under even mild stress (and I make the quals as unstressful as I can, but they're still, well, quals) they won't shoot as well as they do when they're not stressed.

They're now, in my opinion, ready to get their permits and practice; they can start carrying when, after that, they're ready. Their call; not mine. I've already scared them enough -- that's my job -- about how bad it can be for them if, even under the clearest possible circumstances, they take a gun out for serious, after all.

Now, I'm willing to listen, honest, and if somebody can show me how they can count on observing anything close to that modest level of safe handling and shooting in a ten-round qual (with or without the borrowed, pre-loaded .22) I'll admit it.

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*People with particular physical disabilities that make that painful or impossible are exempt from that, of course. I'm not a sadist.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:23 am 
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But Joel, I tapped off both magazines in that lousy Glock as fast as I dared! I didn't realize you could relax and do it in a couple minutes! I was trying to respect your time, and just wanted you to be able to leave the class size of 1 1/2 and be able to go home after an easy day. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:12 am 
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joelr wrote:
If, say, you're going to use a Glock, you've got to be able to put the cartridges in the mag with the bullets facing forward.


That's why everyone should use H&Ks. Putting the rounds in backwards is a manufacturer-approved variation:

Image

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:33 am 
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Heard at BPR about some folks managing to do that with Glocks, too.

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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:43 pm 
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A typical law-enforcement qualification goes something like this. All exercises start with weapon holstered and the student's hands at their sides. A Tran II target is used at 25 feet.

1) Six rounds in eighteen seconds
2) Twelve rounds including a reload in 30 seconds
3) Six rounds in six seconds
4) Eighteen rounds including two reloads in 20 seconds
5) Repeat using strong hand only
6) Repeat using weak hand only

joelr wrote:
Now, I'm willing to listen, honest, and if somebody can show me how they can count on observing anything close to that modest level of safe handling and shooting in a ten-round qual (with or without the borrowed, pre-loaded .22) I'll admit it.


So, to play the devil's advocate, I bet you can't show me how you can count on observing anything close to the still modest level of safe and competent handling and shooting using your qual that FLETC can observe in theirs. More rounds fired and varying situations will reveal more about the shooter. The question you ask is irrelevant, because just as the thirty-round qual you use reveals more than a ten-round qual, so too would a 100-round qual reveal more than your thirty-round qual.

The question is not what is best or even where the point of diminishing returns may lie. The question is what is necessary and sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:53 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
FLETC


Are you a Federal Officer?


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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:01 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
A typical law-enforcement qualification goes something like this. All exercises start with weapon holstered and the student's hands at their sides. A Tran II target is used at 25 feet.

1) Six rounds in eighteen seconds
2) Twelve rounds including a reload in 30 seconds
3) Six rounds in six seconds
4) Eighteen rounds including two reloads in 20 seconds
5) Repeat using strong hand only
6) Repeat using weak hand only

joelr wrote:
Now, I'm willing to listen, honest, and if somebody can show me how they can count on observing anything close to that modest level of safe handling and shooting in a ten-round qual (with or without the borrowed, pre-loaded .22) I'll admit it.


So, to play the devil's advocate, I bet you can't show me how you can count on observing anything close to the still modest level of safe and competent handling and shooting using your qual that FLETC can observe in theirs. More rounds fired and varying situations will reveal more about the shooter. The question you ask is irrelevant, because just as the thirty-round qual you use reveals more than a ten-round qual, so too would a 100-round qual reveal more than your thirty-round qual.

The question is not what is best or even where the point of diminishing returns may lie. The question is what is necessary and sufficient.


And the answer is...

What is necessary and sufficient for Joel's class is what Joel says it is.

BTW, that LE qual sounds like fun to me. :D Something to try on a range day...

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:05 pm 
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points wrote:
MostlyHarmless wrote:
FLETC


Are you a Federal Officer?


No. They wouldn't want me, nor I them. As mrokern notes, however, the qual is something fun to try at the range. The emphasis is on speed, safety, and proper handling.

One of the things I learned the day I went through it was the importance of throwing brass on the floor (if using a revolver) or dropping the mag on the floor (if using an auto) at the range. If you're in the habit of grabbing either with a free hand during practice, you can't change when you're under stress and need the extra second.


Last edited by MostlyHarmless on Sat May 16, 2009 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:09 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
A typical law-enforcement qualification goes something like this. All exercises start with weapon holstered and the student's hands at their sides. A Tran II target is used at 25 feet.

1) Six rounds in eighteen seconds
2) Twelve rounds including a reload in 30 seconds
3) Six rounds in six seconds
4) Eighteen rounds including two reloads in 20 seconds
5) Repeat using strong hand only
6) Repeat using weak hand only

joelr wrote:
Now, I'm willing to listen, honest, and if somebody can show me how they can count on observing anything close to that modest level of safe handling and shooting in a ten-round qual (with or without the borrowed, pre-loaded .22) I'll admit it.


So, to play the devil's advocate, I bet you can't show me how you can count on observing anything close to the still modest level of safe and competent handling and shooting using your qual that FLETC can observe in theirs. .
Actually, I use a slightly more demanding qual than that when I run HR218 classes -- I use the POST-specified one, which also mandates creating failures through the use of dummies and requires use of a barricade -- and, actually, I don't find much of a difference, in practice.

If I did, honest, I'd switch to the POST qual for TCCarry; it'd be worth the few extra minutes to get that.

That's aside of the issue of the holster; I don't think drawing and shooting from holster is a good idea for a basic -- even a very good, basic -- carry class, and I think those two cops doing classes back in 2003 who insisted it was a good idea learned better after that ugly accident.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:17 pm 
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The point could be made that shooting safely from a holster is an important skill for someone who is going to carry.

Aside from the devil's advocate stuff, Joel, if you're serious about improving the qual portion of TCC, I would recommend adding some blue gun drills, both to show basic safety skills prior to the actual qual, and to be able to teach things like drawing in a manner safe for instructor and student. I think that adds more than n additional rounds.


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 Post subject: Re: The TCCarry Qual
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:07 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
...

1) Six rounds in eighteen seconds
2) Twelve rounds including a reload in 30 seconds
3) Six rounds in six seconds
4) Eighteen rounds including two reloads in 20 seconds
5) Repeat using strong hand only
6) Repeat using weak hand only

joelr wrote:
Now, I'm willing to listen, honest, and if somebody can show me how they can count on observing anything close to that modest level of safe handling and shooting in a ten-round qual (with or without the borrowed, pre-loaded .22) I'll admit it.


So, to play the devil's advocate, I bet you can't show me how you can count on observing anything close to the still modest level of safe and competent handling and shooting using your qual that FLETC can observe in theirs.

...


Because it is not necessary or helpful to do rapid-fire, long-distance or weak-hand drills to prove safety and competence.

Those exercises could serve to prove that a student was capable of shooting quickly, at long distances, or with her weak hand, but since those are not withing the description of "safe and competent," your comparison is irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:45 am 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
The point could be made that shooting safely from a holster is an important skill for someone who is going to carry.

Aside from the devil's advocate stuff, Joel, if you're serious about improving the qual portion of TCC,
If? Ah. I think I kinda resent the implication. No, I know so. I'll let another mod deal with that.
Quote:
] I would recommend adding some blue gun drills, both to show basic safety skills prior to the actual qual, and to be able to teach things like drawing in a manner safe for instructor and student.
Oh, that's easy to do -- just do empty-gun drills (with appropriate checks) in the classroom. It's time-consuming, though; see below.
Quote:
I think that adds more than n additional rounds.
I don't use phony guns in qualifications, even though I think they all -- blue guns, laser simulators, Airsoft guns, whatever -- do have their uses.

As to drawing from holster, I think it's a terrific thing to learn, as it's a whole lot of fun, and terrific for some of the gun games, and I recommend people who are interested in that take a holster class from Donnie, say; much, much better than adding a couple of hours of holster work to TCCarry, and spending that huge amount of time on such a marginal (at best) issue as holster work. (When did you last hear about a civilian DGU where a fast draw -- or lack thereof -- was an issue at all, much less an important one?)

If I was going to add on a couple of hours to the class, I'd probably do it on the Reid Technique -- much, much more likely to be relevant than going all Tactical Tommy or Strategic Sully, you know.

But thanks for sharing most of that. For the insult, I find it easy to withhold a trace of gratitude.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:52 am 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
I would recommend adding some blue gun drills, both to show basic safety skills prior to the actual qual, and to be able to teach things like drawing in a manner safe for instructor and student. n additional rounds.


I have used blue guns in a previously life - unfortunately I did not see the same sense of respect that a person should have for a loaded weapon. Recently I took Joel's class for my renewal; it was interesting to observe the near reverence that people showed when in the middle of the class - in a hotel meeting room - he removed his carry pistol, removed the rounds, and demonstrated. Further impact on the class (forgive the pun) when he made a point of telling us that he knew that the wall he was pointed at was made of concrete, not drywall.

The same when he showed the ability of a good pocket holster to conceal a small revolver.

IMHO blue guns are toys and just not the same as handling a safely cleared and unloaded weapon.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:09 am 
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joelr wrote:
If I was going to add on a couple of hours to the class, I'd probably do it on the Reid Technique -- much, much more likely to be relevant than going all Tactical Tommy or Strategic Sully, you know.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation.htm


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:35 pm 
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joelr wrote:
MostlyHarmless wrote:
The point could be made that shooting safely from a holster is an important skill for someone who is going to carry.

Aside from the devil's advocate stuff, Joel, if you're serious about improving the qual portion of TCC,
If? Ah. I think I kinda resent the implication. No, I know so. I'll let another mod deal with that.


It was unclear to me whether you were: a) starting this thread because you are genuinely interested in opinions of forum members on how you could improve the qual, or b) holding up your qual as the gold standard that is the minimum necessary and maximum required for an instructor to conduct a qual you consider appropriate with the intention of comparing your approach to that of other instructors. Your opening post reads rather more like (b), after all.

Quote:
Quote:
I would recommend adding some blue gun drills, both to show basic safety skills prior to the actual qual, and to be able to teach things like drawing in a manner safe for instructor and student.
Oh, that's easy to do -- just do empty-gun drills (with appropriate checks) in the classroom. It's time-consuming, though; see below.
Quote:
I think that adds more than n additional rounds.
I don't use phony guns in qualifications, even though I think they all -- blue guns, laser simulators, Airsoft guns, whatever -- do have their uses.

As to drawing from holster, I think it's a terrific thing to learn, as it's a whole lot of fun, and terrific for some of the gun games, and I recommend people who are interested in that take a holster class from Donnie, say; much, much better than adding a couple of hours of holster work to TCCarry, and spending that huge amount of time on such a marginal (at best) issue as holster work. (When did you last hear about a civilian DGU where a fast draw -- or lack thereof -- was an issue at all, much less an important one?)

If I was going to add on a couple of hours to the class, I'd probably do it on the Reid Technique -- much, much more likely to be relevant than going all Tactical Tommy or Strategic Sully, you know.


Whether you use blue guns or not for unloaded drills (and there are benefits to each approach), I think it would improve instructor and range safety if nothing else. As you've pointed out elsewhere, your students are strangers to you and you have no idea what sort of gun handling background they have. Better to learn that a student is a dangerous fool (or simply naive, as the case may be) when they are confirming that an already cleared weapon is clear than when they are loading one.

In my view, the purpose of covering holster use is not to teach speed but rather to teach safety and show students how they can safely learn to draw quickly if they wish to do so. Students who are new to carry are unlikely to have practiced and are unlikely to be aware of the hazards.

As for Reid technique, for the time being knowing how to assert right to counsel is sufficient, and I doubt the pending matter before the SCOTUS in this area is likely to result in substantive change.


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