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 Electric Fetus in Duluth 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:56 am 
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gunflint wrote:
Keep in mind the difference between "Pro-Gun" and "Pro-Second Amendment." A lot of our good neighbors on the left side of the fence are ok with grandpa's deer rifle or uncle Ed's shotgun but take a sharp left turn when it comes to carrying handguns.


And MOST of the Republicans I know are happy with our gun control laws too. (Aren't Republicans SUPPOSED to be sort of "right wing"?)

Maybe I know all the wrong people, but it's the "lefties" I know that are more tolerant of guns. (Just my experience.) But most of the people I know, right or left are actually not pro handgun.

The POLITICIANS, who cater to liberal blocks of voters, do get lots of money from Brady/Joyce.

But it's a real mistake to assume from that fact that somebody who still has the Kerry bumper sticker wants gun control, or that the guy with the faded Bush sticker won't grab your guns. INMHO

I also think that when people speak up as Pro 2A, and then in the next breath bitch about "liberals", they do themselves and the 2A movement a dis-service.

The antis always dismiss the 2A supporters as a few loud intolerant (right wing) nuts. Why reinforce that?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:48 am 
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I agree. Sorta. There are definitely a lot of pro-self-defense liberals -- and not all of them have been mugged, either. As I keep reminding my conservative friends, the MCPPA would not have passed, either time, without the vote of a small number of liberal DFLers in the Senate.

On the other hand, generally, conservatives are more pro-gun than liberals, and most of the virulently anti-gun folks are liberals.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:29 am 
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I agree also, you got to be careful when you lump folks into one camp or another. And that's said from a guy who is pretty hard to the right (conservative republican, and maybe soon just a conservative if the GOP doesn't clean up its act). I believe government is necessary; I just want government kept to a minimum. You risk alienating people when you lump them into one side or the other. That can inhibit useful discourse and the exchange of ideas, which can't be good. While I have been guilty of lumping at one time or another, I try to consciously avoid it if I can. It's most likely the folks at the far end of either side of the pendulum sway that are the cause for the lumping of folks into rigidly defined camps.

It is reassuring to see pro signs, even if they seem to come from unusual places. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:41 am 
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joelr wrote:
- most of the virulently anti-gun folks are liberals.


But MOST liberals are not "virulently" anti-gun. And, they don't like to be stereotyped, like most people. (And most conservatives are not virulently pro-gun either, or we wouldn't have this mess right now.)

Liberals are sort of used by the Antis, in the same way big business monopolies use Conservatives, who still think business is constrained by competition and therefore oppose "reasonable" regulations on big business.

Most people in this country are now "liberals" as conservatives use the term. Let's not alienate them.

But considering the way the Metro Liberals have treated you, I can understand why you might be more than a little skeptical of my comments. The real Anti politicians are from voting districts where they are in for life, so they have all the seniority and make all the noise.

Everyone's different! (At least I sure hope so.)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Actually, I don't disagree with your comments, at all. In fact, I strongly agree with all of them.

That said, of all the seriously hoplophobic folks I know -- like, say, my sister who won't permit her daughter to stay in my home because we have guns, or the other sister who believes that guns kept near a person's body have a tendency to "go off" -- literally all of them are liberals. I'm not saying that there aren't any conservative far-out hoplophobes (I'm sure that there are), but I don't know any, and suspect that they're far fewer in number.

But, by and large, gun/self-defense issues aren't major issues for most folks, liberal or conservative.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:15 am 
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Dick,
This one is for you. :)

http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseW ... l&ID=18667

Gun Control Dumps Davis Deep and Bombs Bloomberg Bad, Says Firearms Law Expert

Arlington, VA 22202 November 7 2007

“Tuesday’s overwhelming defeat of incumbent Virginia State Sen. Jeannemarie Devolites Davis shows that support for restrictive gun control is a losing proposition for Republicans and that support from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg on the gun issue may be a political kiss of death,” gun rights expert John M. Snyder said here today.

Republican Davis lost to Democrat John Chapman “Chap” Petersen by a 56-percent to 44-percent margin, according to late night news reports.

During the campaign, Davis attacked Petersen for his 2005 support of a bill in the Virginia legislature to exempt concealed firearm permit holders from a ban on firearms on school property while in their vehicles dropping off or picking up their children.
Davis blasted Petersen for opposing measures to allow local jurisdictions to ban guns in libraries and other public buildings. Davis campaigned as an opponent of a so-called “gun show loophole” that gun owners generally consider a phony issue since they maintain there really is no “gun show loophole.”

Last week, Mayor Bloomberg charged into the Commonwealth of Virginia to endorse Davis because of her support for more restrictive gun control laws. Bloomberg wants to undo a federal law that protects the security of federal firearms trace data so that the data may be used in harassing third party civil lawsuits against the firearms industry.

“The results of this election in Northern Virginia should send a message around the Commonwealth and throughout the United States," Snyder said. "It’s noteworthy that Davis attacked Petersen for his support of the 2005 bill allowing concealed firearm permit holders to carry guns on school property. If such a law had been broadened, as some state legislators have unsuccessfully attempted to do, the massacre that occurred earlier this year at Virginia Tech might have been averted or interrupted by a law-abiding armed citizen. As it was, the inane Virginia Tech policy prohibiting concealed carry even by individuals with state-issued, concealed-carry permits eliminated even the possibility of self-defense by students and professors. Gun-free zones just announce to criminals that law-abiding citizens in the zones will not be able to resist violent and murderous criminality.

“The people are coming to realize that gun control is for the birds. They’re telling politicians like Davis and Bloomberg to take a hike. This should augur well for freedom-loving Americans in next year’s national elections.”

A former National Rifle Association magazine editor, Snyder is Public Affairs Director of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, PR Director of the National Association of Chiefs of Police, and Treasurer of the Second Amendment Foundation.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:08 am 
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I don't know what all happened in this election, but people are catching on about gun control not being a solution. The Republican was worried about Virginia Tech, apparently, and being "soft" on guns. Well, this should be instructive to both parties.

It's telling that after a tragedy, like Virgina Tech, the locals are reacting rationally, rather than rushing to enact some new laws to feel better.

Liquor control and drug control didn't work either. People control is what's needed, but that's harder, we need to change the culture.

Some of the newer Dems are learning slowly, but they might forget again after they get elected.

It's probably more persuasive to say "Gun control laws just don't work" than to say "Guns are my right". People are learning you can't just ban stuff and make it disappear.

There is a long way to go. Instead of our children being taught how to operate America's basic military defense rifle, and take pride in it, we vilify it as a dirty "assault rifle".


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:41 am 
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I was in downtown Duluth for a wedding a couple weeks back. The reception was a couple blocks down from the E.F. at the creepy Greysolon building which reminded me a lot of the hotel in "The Shining".

The place is a cesspool. I feel safer in downtown Minneapolis than Duluth. Yeesh.

The waterfront is fine, but go North across the highway and it's yucky.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:12 pm 
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Way way way cool.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:58 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
"Real Liberals" support gun rights!


Well, yeah -- the kind of liberals who used to be around to support JFK. "Liberal" doesn't mean what it used to.

I keep saying this, and other forumites will be all too familiar with it, but I was a reporter with the Strib for 18 years, worked there for 34 years altogether, and I can assure you that, of the approximately 412 people on staff (reporters, editors, layout people, illustrators, library workers, and so on) at most eight, and probably fewer, voted for Dubya in either election.

The other 406 or whatever voted for other candidates, ranging from Gore to Kucinich to Nader to whoever the Socialist Workers Party was running. In other words, the staff is a pretty large sampling of actual, real-world liberal-left people.

As far as I know, there are at most five gun owners on the staff today, down from about seven before I and a friend left. Probably two of those own handguns. I do not know how many support the right of ordinary citizens to own a handgun, including a "semi-automatic handgun" which was referred to as the worst kind of gun there is by a guy I was arguing with one day. Not many, would be my guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Well, "conservative doesn't mean what it did in the days of Eisenhower or Goldwater, either. In those days opponents respected each other, and each other's viewpoint, and they were not so far apart.

The Democrats had conservatives in leadership positions, and the Repblicans had liberals, unlike today.

But I'm not surprized if the Strib staff is 90 liberal Dem, and the other 10% probably don't talk politics. Sort of like the "U", or a school system.

I try not to define "Liberalism" by the actions of the nutty Dem and DFL leaders. And, similarly, "conservatism" should not be defined by belief in Dubya. INMHO anyway.

I'm not a one issue gun voter, (unfortunately I suppose) but if I was, I'd be almost all Repulican. My Congressional Representative is Collin Peterson, DFL, who is a gun dealer/gun collector/hunter/shooter. He tells his colleagues that gun laws are a waste of time and money. His Republican opponents have also been progun, but his Dem seniority makes him a good guy to have in office, on guns.

He's in for life, tons of REPUBLICAN suipport! The Dems cannot "disipline" him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:55 pm 
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I was in Duluth over Thanksgiving weekend and decided to check out the Fetus (mostly looking for the sign). I didn't see one for, or against, guns.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:32 pm 
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Well, "conservative doesn't mean what it did in the days of Eisenhower or Goldwater, either. In those days opponents respected each other, and each other's viewpoint, and they were not so far apart.

The Democrats had conservatives in leadership positions, and the Repblicans had liberals, unlike today.


True, but both sides in those days were in agreement about many things. Both were anti-communist, for one thing, but then the Sixties came along and the Democratic mainstream decided that JFK and Humphrey were too out-of-date, so they embraced those who hated America, to put it simply. They decided to reorient their party so that those attending national conventions would no longer be a bunch of cigar-chomping pols, but instead would have to be divided along racial, gender, sexual-orientation, and ethnic lines -- so many lesbians, so many single mothers, so many gays, so many transgendered persons, so many blacks, so many Trobriand Islanders. . .

The net result was McGovern, for one thing. The Democratic party has never been the same since. It's become locked into a paranoiac outlook in which anybody who disagrees, like Joe Lieberman, is treated as a pariah. They get downright Stalinist if somebody tries to speak against abortion, for example, at one of their national conventions. The Republicans at least allow pro-abortion pols to speak.

it's true that the Republicans have drifted towards conservatism, but only slightly. They just look conservative compared to the Democrats.

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