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 Dayton, MN city code and preemption 
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 Post subject: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:04 pm 
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I live in Dayton, MN (north of Maple Grove) and city's Public Safety committee, including the police chief is trying to get a new weapons ordinance passed by the city counsel.
There is a section on Possession of Weapons that I do not think is legal.

It includes:

505.03 Possession
1.Carrying Dangerous Weapons. No person shall have in his or her possession in any public place within 1,000 of a building occupied by humans or livestock, any Dangerous Weapon unless it is contained in a case and is unloaded in both the barrel and the magazine.
2.Motor Vehicles. No person shall have any Dangerous Weapon in a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded in both the barrel and the magazine and is contained in a case or carried in the trunk of the motor vehicle.

I believe the state preempts this in statue 471.633

471.633 FIREARMS.
The legislature preempts all authority of a home rule charter or statutory city including a city
of the first class, county, town, municipal corporation, or other governmental subdivision, or any
of their instrumentalities, to regulate firearms, ammunition, or their respective components to the
complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by them except that:
(a) a governmental subdivision may regulate the discharge of firearms; and
(b) a governmental subdivision may adopt regulations identical to state law.
Local regulation inconsistent with this section is void.

There is nothing in the state's code on possession that lists 1000 feet from occupied buildings and the state includes exclusions in the definition of public places. The State's motor vehicle section lists exceptions for handicapped people and the “hunter convenience section”.

The Dayton code gives an exception to police officers and carry permit holders, but since it is not identical to the state code I do not believe it is valid. I believe it also puts illegal restrictions on non permit holders.

I emailed my concerns about this to the mayor and city counsel and I have at least one counsel member on my side. They sent it back to the safety committee for some changes in the hunting portion and also to check if this section is legal. Of course the police chief already thinks this is legal, so I am not sure who is going to decide this.

I have a couple of questions:

If I am wrong on this, let me know and I will lay off the council.

If I am right, is there a lawyer out there that would be interested in sending a friendly educational letter to Dayton City's lawyer?

Thanks, Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:08 pm 
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That's a little sneaky. He's trying to be close to the hunting regs. More in a min...

Here's the relevant part of MN Statute 97B.001
Quote:
Subd. 7.Taking with firearms in certain areas.

(a) A person may not take a wild animal with a firearm within 500 feet of a building occupied by a human or livestock without the written permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee:

(b) A person may not take a wild animal with a firearm without the permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee, within 500 feet of a stockade or corral containing livestock.


But he's more restrictive about carrying versus taking and his buffer zone is more restrictive, so no dice. He can't do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:38 pm 
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DeanC wrote:
That's a little sneaky. He's trying to be close to the hunting regs. More in a min...

Here's the relevant part of MN Statute 97B.001
Quote:
Subd. 7.Taking with firearms in certain areas.

(a) A person may not take a wild animal with a firearm within 500 feet of a building occupied by a human or livestock without the written permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee:

(b) A person may not take a wild animal with a firearm without the permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee, within 500 feet of a stockade or corral containing livestock.


But he's more restrictive about carrying versus taking and his buffer zone is more restrictive, so no dice. He can't do it.



Yes, part of the regs are about hunting, which they can regulate (discharge), I've been working on that too, but of course, possesion isn't hunting.
By the way, If this passes, they are including sling shots as dangerous weapons, so you better have your sling shot cased when driving through Dayton. Unfortunatly I don't think the state preempts sling shots, so all I could say is that was absurd......


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:42 pm 
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Location: Anoka, MN
The way it is worded it would also preempt self-defense, since you can't have a unsecured, assembled, loaded weapon within 1,000 feet of an occupied structure. Who's pushing the Police Chief for this?

EDIT: Also, for their meetings on it (if they're having any):

1) By passing this law, they're in violation of state law, and placing the city on the receiving end of any lawsuits against it (with financial penalties added, due to victor likely going for expenses due to the negligence on the part of the city)
2) What in this provision isn't already provided by state law? All it does (if it WERE legal, which it isn't) is move out the 500 foot rule to 1,000 feet.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Location: Greenfield, MN
I live in Greenfield(close to Dayton) and the question I have is what does the council hope to gain by this ordance. We have state law that clearly defines transport and carry restrictions.

Seems like another branch of the government with to much time on their hands. Hanover(also close to us) has a firearms discharge ordanice and I live right accross the street form them. I chronograph ammo on occation and twice they have cann Henn Cty Shrieff and twice I've explained to the deputy that I'm well within my rights. He agrees but wishes I'd stop provoking the neighbors. I told him to tell the neighbors to stop make false police calls.

Good luck, I would agree I'm not sure most of what they want is enforcable but hey, I don't want to be test case.

Will be interesting to see how they hand the first non resident they charge with the offence.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Q_Continuum got it exactly right.

clevang, when is the next meeting? It might be useful to have some of us there, and maybe drag in the city attorney to knock some sense into the c-o-u-n-c-i-l before this gets silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Q_Continuum got it exactly right.

clevang, when is the next meeting? It might be useful to have some of us there, and maybe drag in the city attorney to knock some sense into the c-o-u-n-c-i-l before this gets silly.


It would, however, behoove the council to check with counsel.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:47 pm 
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The council meets 2nd and 4th Tuesdays of every month. They don't post the agenda until a day before the meeting, so I don't get much leadtime for when it will come up the next time.
As far as I know the police chief is pushing this. About 6 years ago, my son applied for a purchase permit for an AR-15 when he turned 18. The chief called my son up and said he didn't think he was old enough, so he wasn't going to give him one. We met with the mayor at that time, and the mayor made him issue it. So it seems the chief doesn't mind ignoring laws he doesn't like.
The proposed ordinance started out with a permit to hunt clause that was removed after a public hearing about a month ago. I had hoped the whole thing had died, but the safety committee re-submitted it last Tuesday with out the permit clause, although our old ordinance has much of the same language in it.
The councilman that I have been communicating with agrees that state law already covers this, but I don't think he has convinced everyone else.
I don't have direct access to the city attorney, but if he takes a look at this I would hope he would axe it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Ok I grew up in Champlin, so Dayton is just down the street. I still remember it as a town about two blocks wide, mostly consisting of cornfields and that big mansion on the river. So while I'm sure it's grown up since I moved away do they really have nothing else to do there, except pursue legislation that at best is already covered by state law, or at worst is illegal??

Buy your police chief a book or teach him to knit or something. He obviously needs a hobby.

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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:57 pm 
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kecker wrote:
Ok I grew up in Champlin, so Dayton is just down the street. I still remember it as a town about two blocks wide, mostly consisting of cornfields and that big mansion on the river. So while I'm sure it's grown up since I moved away do they really have nothing else to do there, except pursue legislation that at best is already covered by state law, or at worst is illegal??

Buy your police chief a book or teach him to knit or something. He obviously needs a hobby.


apparently it hasn't changed much, I've see some nice wild turkeys and pheasants along river road

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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:58 pm 
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kecker wrote:
Ok I grew up in Champlin, so Dayton is just down the street. I still remember it as a town about two blocks wide, mostly consisting of cornfields and that big mansion on the river. So while I'm sure it's grown up since I moved away do they really have nothing else to do there, except pursue legislation that at best is already covered by state law, or at worst is illegal??

Buy your police chief a book or teach him to knit or something. He obviously needs a hobby.


grew up i Champlin myself. Always loved to drive through Dayton, and until it closed had my favorite butcher shop. There is a great story behind that mansion on the river. Or at least I have been told a great story about that mansion. Always hated the Dayton PD. They love to speed trap the hill where you go from 55 to 30 in about half a block on both sides of town.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:42 am 
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Location: Anoka, MN
clevang wrote:
The council meets 2nd and 4th Tuesdays of every month. They don't post the agenda until a day before the meeting, so I don't get much leadtime for when it will come up the next time.
As far as I know the police chief is pushing this. About 6 years ago, my son applied for a purchase permit for an AR-15 when he turned 18. The chief called my son up and said he didn't think he was old enough, so he wasn't going to give him one. We met with the mayor at that time, and the mayor made him issue it. So it seems the chief doesn't mind ignoring laws he doesn't like.
The proposed ordinance started out with a permit to hunt clause that was removed after a public hearing about a month ago. I had hoped the whole thing had died, but the safety committee re-submitted it last Tuesday with out the permit clause, although our old ordinance has much of the same language in it.
The councilman that I have been communicating with agrees that state law already covers this, but I don't think he has convinced everyone else.
I don't have direct access to the city attorney, but if he takes a look at this I would hope he would axe it.


Well...thanks to the economy, some of us are currently out of work. So some of us are free - let us know when a meeting is coming, and then let us know if it's on the agenda. :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:46 am 
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clevang wrote:
TAbout 6 years ago, my son applied for a purchase permit for an AR-15 when he turned 18. The chief called my son up and said he didn't think he was old enough, so he wasn't going to give him one.

This is standard operating procedure in almost every city in the metro area.

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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:36 am 
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kecker wrote:
Ok I grew up in Champlin, so Dayton is just down the street. I still remember it as a town about two blocks wide, mostly consisting of cornfields and that big mansion on the river. So while I'm sure it's grown up since I moved away do they really have nothing else to do there, except pursue legislation that at best is already covered by state law, or at worst is illegal??

Buy your police chief a book or teach him to knit or something. He obviously needs a hobby.



Yea, Dayton is still mostly rural. Largely still farmland, probably waiting for the land to be worth as much as Maple Grove. Hopefully that will take awhile. The chief used to work in Minneapolis, now he has too much time on his hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Dayton, MN city code and preemption
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:42 am 
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Q_Continuum wrote:
clevang wrote:
The council meets 2nd and 4th Tuesdays of every month. They don't post the agenda until a day before the meeting, so I don't get much leadtime for when it will come up the next time.
As far as I know the police chief is pushing this. About 6 years ago, my son applied for a purchase permit for an AR-15 when he turned 18. The chief called my son up and said he didn't think he was old enough, so he wasn't going to give him one. We met with the mayor at that time, and the mayor made him issue it. So it seems the chief doesn't mind ignoring laws he doesn't like.
The proposed ordinance started out with a permit to hunt clause that was removed after a public hearing about a month ago. I had hoped the whole thing had died, but the safety committee re-submitted it last Tuesday with out the permit clause, although our old ordinance has much of the same language in it.
The councilman that I have been communicating with agrees that state law already covers this, but I don't think he has convinced everyone else.
I don't have direct access to the city attorney, but if he takes a look at this I would hope he would axe it.


Well...thanks to the economy, some of us are currently out of work. So some of us are free - let us know when a meeting is coming, and then let us know if it's on the agenda. :-D


Thanks, I will keep you posted. I am going to see if the counsilman I have talked to will forward my email with the state statues to the city lawyer.


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