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 A pretty good troll, all in all 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:06 pm 
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morgasco wrote:
I would recommend Joel also, but that's based on observing him at Burnsville Pistol. He spend alot of time with each of his students, teaching everything from stance to pistol types. I'm pretty sure he was with one of his students for at least 25 minutes, helping get her comfortable with handling the firearm and technique. So I know why his class costs more... he goes through a fair amount of ammo at the range :P

:) Varies dramatically. The woman you're talking about was doing her qual after B2C, although I had one the week before who was doing a regular qual who actually took a little longer. (Just nerves; no big deal.) That happens, at times.

Sometimes it takes a lot less time. (Never less than thirty rounds, but we've been through that discussion enough for now.)

There was one guy who was doing his renewal, and came into the bay with his carry handgun properly holstered, but loaded with practice ammo, along with three additional loaded mags, as well as his regular carry mag and a one-round-loaded reload mag. He set the mags down on the bench in the order that he wanted them, while we went over the scoring, then drew from holster, set the gun down on the bench (since we follow the BPR rules about not drawing and shooting from holster), picked it up, and rattled off fifteen rounds at fifteen feet, and then another fifteen at twenty-one (he was ready to go before I had the target out to twenty-one feet; he waited for the command to fire), then reloaded, reholstered, and stopped to pick up the dropped mags and dropped them into a pocket.

He was out of the bay less than a minute after he'd walked in, with a perfect score (not my doing, I might add; he does a lot of IDPA).

But he was showing off, just a little. Which was fun, and since he was doing it wtih picture-perfect safety, was more than fine with me.

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Last edited by joelr on Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:23 pm 
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I took mine at Bill's North from Nate Warren - good facility, great class.

I hear great things about both Don and Joel - but I've not taken from either of them. Based on what I've read here, I wouldn't hesitate to use either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:46 pm 
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You're in a good place to find good instruction. Stick around, read what people have to say, check their websites as recommended, ask questions.

I like to think I'm a pretty good instructor my own self. Have the comments and personal referrals of past students to make me think so anyway. That said, I'm nowhere near Eden Prarie.

I'd heartily recommend Andrew, Joel, and DonL who have been mentioned here. I haven't taken DonL's class but took some advanced handgun stuff and like his approach / attitude / teaching style. I took my initial permit class from Joel despite the cost. Don't feel cheated in the slightest. Money well spent. I've sat through Andrew's Instructor class twice and think he teaches a good class as well.

PrinceWally is on your side of town (west but not South West) and does a good class from all I hear. Burnsville Pistol Range has an in-house Carry class that I'll bet is excellent.

I'm SURE I'm forgetting someone ...There are a TON of good instructors hereabouts. Heck, don't let location stop you. Driving an extra half hour for a quality class that meets your needs shouldn't be a big deal unless you lack transport. (He said, being >30 miles away in at Oakdale Gun Club)

Best of luck, and above all, stay safe. No matter who your instructor is, in the end, it's up to you to learn, think, and adjust as necessary. Good instruction is a great start but it's an ongoing responsibility.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:51 pm 
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I may bet blasted for this, but I think cost is the only factor to consider. Many members beleive, and I agree, that no class should be necessary nor should even a permit, to carry. Hence, why spend any extra money on a class that may or may not teach you anything more than any other class. Sure, there are poor instuctors, and we have discussed them, but cost, in this case, is not an accurate barometer of quality. You can take any class you wish, but there are certainly many other avenues of information post class that are free, calling Joel, however, is not one of them :D. Just my opinion. Save your money for ammo.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
I may bet blasted for this, but I think cost is the only factor to consider.
I think your logic, as previously discussed, is preposterously flawed, but for those folks who want to take your advice, <a href=http://joepenaz.ipower.com/store/page2.html rel="nofollow">there is a class on June 28 that will cost only $49.95, plus some disclosed (and perhaps nondisclosed) extras</a>. If you believe the ad (I do not), the vendor is
Penaz wrote:
offering you the chance to get your Minnesota Permit at a Patriot’s price (sic) of $49.95 (plus $3.50 <s>processing</s> [correction by JR] shipping fee)

Image

Again: I do not believe the vendor. YMMV; caveat emptor; carpe canem.
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...You can take any class you wish, but there are certainly many other avenues of information post class that are free,
That is true.
Quote:
calling Joel, however, is not one of them.
That is also true; I don't do post-class support for inadequate instructors.

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Last edited by joelr on Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
I may bet blasted for this, but I think cost is the only factor to consider.


BLAST!

While I agree that no training should be required, there is a lot to know, and dozens of pitfalls that a good class can help you avoid.

More importantly, you run the risk of picking up incorrect information, which can get you in a lot of trouble.

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so.
—Will Rogers


But most importantly, when you can take a class from a 1) retired attorney who is also 2) a retired licensed teacher and 3) an NRA <s>training counselor</s>-certified instructor, all for the same price as a shitty class, it's ludicrous to suggest that price is the only criterion.

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* NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.


Last edited by Andrew Rothman on Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:44 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Moby Clarke wrote:
I may bet blasted for this, but I think cost is the only factor to consider.


BLAST!

While I agree that no training should be required, there is a lot to know, and dozens of pitfalls that a good class can help you avoid.

More importantly, you run the risk of picking up incorrect information, which can get you in a lot of trouble.
"You mean I can't carry in Colorado on a Utah permit? But Carlos said I could!"

"Did you read the fine print?"

"They don't let me have my reading glasses in jail."

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:33 pm 
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:?


Last edited by cobb on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:36 pm 
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Strong disagreement; I think the food at OCB, while not particularly tasty or terribly nutritious, is unlikely to get you into trouble.

[ETA: Sheesh, Cobb. Nothing horribly wrong with a flawed analogy, except that it's flawed, but you editing it out of existence just encourages me to quote you, next time, so that you can't do that again.]

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Last edited by joelr on Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:41 pm 
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:?


Last edited by cobb on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Moby Clarke wrote:
I may bet blasted for this, but I think cost is the only factor to consider.


BLAST!

While I agree that no training should be required, there is a lot to know, and dozens of pitfalls that a good class can help you avoid.

More importantly, you run the risk of picking up incorrect information, which can get you in a lot of trouble.

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so.
—Will Rogers


But most importantly, when you can take a class from a 1) retired attorney who is also 2) a retired licensed teacher and 3) an NRA training counselor, all for the same price as a shitty class, it's ludicrous to suggest that price is the only criterion.

Oh, thanks for the plug/link. In full disclosure, I am an NRA Instructor, attorney, teacher etc....I am not yet an NRA TC. Will be soon though... :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:07 pm 
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;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:31 pm 
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:?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:49 pm 
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There's an awful lot of :? around here.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:31 pm 
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phorvick wrote:
I am not yet an NRA TC. Will be soon though... :)


Sorry for the premature promotion! ;)

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