Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:35 pm

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Car
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:30 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Oh dear fucking heaven, I think I'm done over there.

What a whack off fest in that thread. :?

When a few specific people show up at the capitol and actually start calling legislators rather than fawning over each other, then they can call themselves 2A fans. Until then, they're just running their mouths.

-Mark

To be fair, some small number of the kiddies have actually done a little activism in the past; several of them (perhaps as many as six?) have actually shown up at one hearing (I credit plblark for a lot of hard work on that), and I've been told that a few have made some phone calls and maybe written an email or two*. Tom Tousignant was pretty active during the (successful, as it happens, although it was a very close thing, and if it wasn't for Andrea Murphy running her mouth over at Gander at precisely the wrong/right time, it probably would have happened) attempts to prevent the MSA from taking over instructor certification and cutting themselves and the MCA in for a (presumably large) piece of it back in late 2005.

But, yeah, mostly they just run their mouths. Andy "Pinnacle" Shapero is probably the worst -- he's got no interest, he says, in activism around 2A issues, but he's got a lot of interest in telling people who are actually Doing Stuff that they better not make waves while he's jumping up and down, pissing himself, and inciting panic among the other kiddies. Well, at least it's been almost a two years now since I got a hangup call from him. (Strong language to follow. Really.)

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with people having hobbies. I play bridge, myself. Some folks collect wine, or dolls, others guns. (I do all of that. Except for the dolls.) But at least the doll fanciers don't, far as I know, claim that they're doing anything important.

________________________
* Collectively, that's awfully important. This stuff doesn't get done without that.


Oh, I figured at least some of them got involved. My comment is aimed (as you guessed) directly at Pinnacle and Co. I've seen close to nothing over there out of that little clique to be impressed with.

If you don't get involved, you don't get to bitch when you lose your rights. JMO...

That won't stop the bitching.

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Car
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:58 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
A few of them have done a very little. Haagensen/Goalie did show up at the 2004 birthday party, and -- after some persuasion from Andrew -- did talk to a reporter about his own DGU and the aftermath with the MPD. Pat Couteaux, I think, remembers in some sort of generalities has having done a lot, but I'm not sure what specifics he'd have to point to. Jeremy Poole, nah. Dallas Laurents has several times shuffled his feet, looked down, and shyly announced his willingness to take over a senior management position in the movement, which I think is pretty darned nice of him...

....but that's about it, as far as I know, from that crowd, which is pretty pitiful. (Hell, even Gary Shade can point to having done at least a little out in Apple Valley, a decade or so ago, to keep the local government on its toes. Not much, granted, but at least it's something, and that makes even Shade an activism giant standing next to a pygmy like "Pinnacle".)

Now, it's entirely possible that one or more of the noisier kiddies are actually getting their work credits in without me hearing about it -- and I'd love for that to be the case; there's always too much work and too few hands -- but for obvious reasons I do try to keep track of who is actually doing stuff, at least in the metro, so that's probably not the way to bet. Much more likely they think that going out to lunch counts as activism, rather than recreation.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:41 am 
On permanent time out
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:44 am
Posts: 15
joelr wrote:
Jonahwaters wrote:
[

hi Joel. i presume you are the owner of this neat forum. funny you mention Penaz. i was in a gun shop yesterday and the guy behind the counter told me about him. apparently Penaz just gave a free carry class for 90 college guys and gals.
Actually, apparently not; his website says that he and "Michael Martin from MnTactics" are planning to give a significantly discounted class -- "$5 for paperwork" -- for up to 100 such on the 27th. In principal, it sounds like a generally legitimate promotion, although if one clicks on his signup link, there's no place to register for the $5 class at http://joepenaz.ipower.com/store/page2.html; I can't tell how they'd sign up for the $5 class, or if it's really $5 plus $3.50 for "shipping."

Still, if it does exist, even a $8.50 class is pretty cheap.


good morning Joel. i'm not sure what happened but i think some posts are missing. i recall expressing my surprise regarding you being banned on mnguntak. why all the negativity about you in the "training" section of mnguntalk? you would think they would show some respect to a instructor of your status.

_________________
[This 'new member' has previously trolled the Forum as, variously, "ein brera", "Ezra Buck," and "1911silver." He's now gone back to the day care site. For those who are interested, his postings come from IP addresses 208.87.234.180 and 67.159.44.138. JR]


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:45 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
Jonahwaters wrote:
joelr wrote:
Jonahwaters wrote:
[

hi Joel. i presume you are the owner of this neat forum. funny you mention Penaz. i was in a gun shop yesterday and the guy behind the counter told me about him. apparently Penaz just gave a free carry class for 90 college guys and gals.
Actually, apparently not; his website says that he and "Michael Martin from MnTactics" are planning to give a significantly discounted class -- "$5 for paperwork" -- for up to 100 such on the 27th. In principal, it sounds like a generally legitimate promotion, although if one clicks on his signup link, there's no place to register for the $5 class at http://joepenaz.ipower.com/store/page2.html; I can't tell how they'd sign up for the $5 class, or if it's really $5 plus $3.50 for "shipping."

Still, if it does exist, even a $8.50 class is pretty cheap.


good morning Joel. i'm not sure what happened but i think some posts are missing. i recall expressing my surprise regarding you being banned on mnguntak. why all the negativity about you in the "training" section of mnguntalk? you would think they would show some respect to a instructor of your status.


Not deleted. Just moved to another subforum.

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:46 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Yup; here.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:46 pm
Posts: 845
Location: Saint Paul
I am not a member "over there", but I did take some time to peruse some of the threads posted there. One thing that I note is that there certainly seems to be a lot of vitriol posted and eagerly accepted by the moderators. That being said, I haven't picked sides and I doubt if I will.

I realize first-hand that at times it is extremely difficult to adhere to the premise of "attack the idea, not the poster". In a quick and unscientific comparison of the two boards, I believe that this board adheres to the aforementioned premise closer than "over there".

A board owner can do what he wishes. It is his board. In my not-so-learned opinion, the forum owner here tends to attack behavior and the results of poor behavior, or poor class technique, and not so much the instructor directly. (He does seem to be kicking mightily at the constraints of that envelope. :roll: ) However, it might do well not to apply "cutesy" names to individuals. That seems a bit pedantic. Name real names and keep doing so if the thread is truthful, and I have no reason to doubt that any posts here by the board owner were less than truthful.

Here is an interesting video, if you can live through the confounded advertising preceding it: http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:19 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 700
Location: Northeast Minneapolis
Traveler wrote:
A board owner can do what he wishes. It is his board. In my not-so-learned opinion, the forum owner here tends to attack behavior and the results of poor behavior, or poor class technique, and not so much the instructor directly. (He does seem to be kicking mightily at the constraints of that envelope. :roll: ) However, it might do well not to apply "cutesy" names to individuals. That seems a bit pedantic.[/url]
That would be another one of those jokes that was funny the first couple of times but is getting real boring now...


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:02 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
White Horseradish wrote:
Traveler wrote:
A board owner can do what he wishes. It is his board. In my not-so-learned opinion, the forum owner here tends to attack behavior and the results of poor behavior, or poor class technique, and not so much the instructor directly. (He does seem to be kicking mightily at the constraints of that envelope. :roll: ) However, it might do well not to apply "cutesy" names to individuals. That seems a bit pedantic.[/url]
That would be another one of those jokes that was funny the first couple of times but is getting real boring now...


It's also one of those things where outside of this thread there has been no mention of it as of late by the site owner.

Nothing to see here...


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:56 am 
Senior Member

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:18 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Coon Rapids
I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm curious why real names need to be mentioned over and over, presumably against the wishes of the person. There is a plethora of keyboard commandos left unnamed, why out those few?

I've met a number of members from both these forums (My preschool daughters and I met some of you at the hearing last year, for example) and in person there isn't anyone I would have problems with shaking hands. There is nothing to be gained by all the poison on both sides is all I'm saying.

Here I go back to reading politics and guns. Peace,

Tony Treml
(In case you were wondering. :lol: )


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:11 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
ttreml3 wrote:
I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm curious why real names need to be mentioned over and over, presumably against the wishes of the person. There is a plethora of keyboard commandos left unnamed, why out those few?

I've met a number of members from both these forums (My preschool daughters and I met some of you at the hearing last year, for example) and in person there isn't anyone I would have problems with shaking hands. There is nothing to be gained by all the poison on both sides is all I'm saying.

Here I go back to reading politics and guns. Peace,

Tony Treml
(In case you were wondering. :lol: )


The real name thing is a bug up someone's butt on the other site.

I don't get it, honestly. If I won't sign my name to something, then I shouldn't be saying it.

For the record:

mrokern = Mark R. Okern

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:43 am 
Longtime Regular

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:09 am
Posts: 983
Location: Brewster
I respectfully disagree Mark. I would not share my name or that I even have a permit on the web in public if I was not an instructor. I disagree with what Joel has done with this and on the Coconut Charlie/Penaz deal, but it is his right to do as he sees fit (even though I think there have been consequences and relationships damaged). I think this is where you and disagree. I think Joel has done a ton of good for the carry movement, but this is not IMO.

_________________
Professional Firearms Training. LLC.
http://www.mngunclass.com


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:00 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
jaysong wrote:
I respectfully disagree Mark. I would not share my name or that I even have a permit on the web in public if I was not an instructor. I disagree with what Joel has done with this and on the Coconut Charlie/Penaz deal, but it is his right to do as he sees fit (even though I think there have been consequences and relationships damaged). I think this is where you and disagree. I think Joel has done a ton of good for the carry movement, but this is not IMO.


Apologies, I should have qualified a bit more.

I don't have an issue with someone wanting to stay anonymous for personal reasons, especially when it comes to permits and firearms.

Where I do take issue is with people who use anonymity to hide behind when attacking others. Folks may agree or disagree with Joel's parodies, but we can all agree that he hasn't hidden his connection with them in any way. I can't say the same for some of the other folks who are bent out of shape.

Now, this is one of those annoying little "what Mark believes" vs. "what Mark would personally do" things. It wouldn't be my thing to out an online PITA who didn't wish for their name to be public. That said, I would consider them to be ethically lacking. If you're going to attack someone, I think it changes the online game to where you should be willing to use your real name. Consider the myspace suicide scandal.

It's the whole "say it to my face" thing, just with keyboards and monitors. :lol:

And as always, JMO. :D

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:34 am 
Raving Moderate
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:46 pm
Posts: 1292
Location: Minneapolis
mrokern wrote:

I don't have an issue with someone wanting to stay anonymous for personal reasons, especially when it comes to permits and firearms.

Where I do take issue is with people who use anonymity to hide behind when attacking others. Folks may agree or disagree with Joel's parodies, but we can all agree that he hasn't hidden his connection with them in any way. I can't say the same for some of the other folks who are bent out of shape.

Now, this is one of those annoying little "what Mark believes" vs. "what Mark would personally do" things. It wouldn't be my thing to out an online PITA who didn't wish for their name to be public. That said, I would consider them to be ethically lacking. If you're going to attack someone, I think it changes the online game to where you should be willing to use your real name. Consider the myspace suicide scandal.

It's the whole "say it to my face" thing, just with keyboards and monitors. :lol:

And as always, JMO. :D

-Mark


+1.

Basically, IMHO, it boils down to this- if you're a big enough man (or woman!) to say it, then have the cojones to put your name on it and take whatever lumps you have coming.

_________________
I'm liberal, pro-choice, and I carry a gun. Any questions?

My real name is Jeremiah (go figure). ;)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:34 pm 
In the time out chair
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:22 pm
Posts: 106
This sort of thing is a very substantiai reason why people do not want real names on boards some might think are un PC.

Quote:
City Asks Applicants for Passwords to Their Social Networking Sites
Friday, June 19, 2009
By Matt Gouras, Associated Press

Helena, Mont. (AP) - Job applicants with the city of Bozeman are finding that their private Internet discussions and pictures may not be so private after all.

The city is asking job seekers for the user names and passwords to Internet social networking or Web groups they belong too. The decision is sparking an outcry from those who say the policy goes way too far.

The issue has spawned hundreds of comments on Web forums and sharp criticism from legislators and the ACLU.

"I liken it to them saying they want to look at your love letters and your family photos," said Amy Cannata, with the American Civil Liberties Union of Montana. "I think this policy certainly crosses the privacy line."

The city argues that it only uses the information to verify application information -- and says it won't hold it against anyone for refusing to provide it. City officials say such checks can be useful, especially when hiring police officers and others in a position of public trust.

Bozeman officials have been hammered with e-mails and phone calls ever since KBZK-TV of Bozeman reported the policy on Wednesday, including an excerpt from the city application form that states "Please list any and all current personal or business Web sites, web pages or memberships on any Internet-based chat rooms, social clubs or forums, to include, but not limited to: Facebook, Google, Yahoo, YouTube.com, MySpace, etc."

Bozeman City Commissioner Jeff Rupp said he was unaware city officers had implemented the policy, and expects the city commission will be talking about it. But Rupp said it is not as bad as it sounds since applicants are not scored negatively for refusing to answer the question.

"I can tell you I would not provide it in an application I submit," Rupp said. "I have been told repeatedly it is not scored, and the application is not discarded if not provided."

Rep. Brady Wiseman, a Bozeman Democrat, led the state's fight against the Patriot Act when the Legislature issued a harsh critique of the federal act, arguing it trampled civil liberties and put the government into a position of snooping on citizens.

Wiseman said Bozeman now is going too far.

"Asking for passwords is over the line," Wiseman said. "I think that this notion opens up a whole new line of debate on privacy."

The intense pressure generated in just a couple days is hitting the city hard.

Bozeman City Attorney Greg Sullivan told the Bozeman Daily Chronicle Thursday that the city may look at changing the policy so that they could view an applicant's social networking sites without asking for login information. One option would be to have an applicant add the city as a "friend" on such sites as Facebook.

"We've already began that discussion," Sullivan said.

Cannata, with the ACLU, said her organization has not found another government body that asks for such information. And even though the ACLU has not done a full legal analysis, she said the Bozeman policy doesn't pass the smell test.

"It's one thing, and I think totally reasonable, if someone has a public profile to go check it out," Cannata said.

But private groups and profile could reveal information employers could not legally base hiring decisions on, such as a person's religion, she added.

"Are they going to go in and look at those things?" Cannata said. "And even if they don't intend to look at those things, it's still there for them to see."



It is not a matter of "cajones" it is a matter of discretion, employment, and free speech.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Complaining about Joel Over at Day Care
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
Every now and again the ACLU can be useful. :lol:

I won't out somebody who hasn't outed themselves. That's me, personally.

I will give a very large Image to someone who attacks somebody else publicly and doesn't use their real name. That's not a common problem around here, at least. We aren't all hugs and kisses round these parts, but for the most part it's a good, if...spirited...group. :wink:

-Mark

ETA - And when I say attack, I don't mean respectfully disagreeing with an opinion. That's certainly allowed here. I mean an attack on the person, which is likely to get the attacker in enough trouble around here regardless of how they sign off.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group