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 Next Holster Session June 28th 7pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:50 pm 
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I'm planning on attending. Let's have it at hypertech's place.

Should I put a table and a couple folding chairs in the van?

As to supplies, a shoulder of leather from Tandy Leather in Bloomington is ~$20 IIRC. Ask Johan. He's a great guy.

Short of buying leather, I'd say if you showed up with $5 for whomever had exra on their shoulder, you'd be welcome to it. If that's your intention, speak up and one of the people who've already bought shoulders can be sure to bring extra.

If you are going to buy something, an awl would be my recommendation. That's the tool that gets the most consistent use. I have needles for use / loan and some thread. I even have an awl I'd loan out so you can continue working on your project.

Here are the tools I usually use:
-Ruler
-Protractor for cant and curves
-Quarter,nickel, penny, dime for rounded edges on the pattern
-Paper
-Pencil
-Compass (both ends pointed) - for transferring offsets and enlarging from pattern.
-clean work surface
-CLEAN hands with well trimmed and filed nails (you WILL mark up the leather otherwise
-cup of water with sponge or sponge cloth to wet leather for working
-Standard utility knife with SHARP blade(s)
-Xacto knife (small, precise cuts
-Awl for pattern marking on leather
-Stitching wheel for stitch placement
-leather beveler for clean edges
-gouger for dressy edges and offset gouged lines. I've been using it less and less for stitch lines though since Gary Brommeland told me that the top layer is the strongest layer and by gouging out a channel to stitch you're adding a point of weakness.
-4 prong narrow rectangle profile punch for stitching holes (much easier on my hands)
-1 prong same profile as above for curves and non-linear placement of stitch holes
-mini punch for belt clot rounded parts and for chicago screw mounts
-Chicago screws (google image it) for attachments
-glue for large areas of contacting sewn in leather (Srigs and I have opposite approaches and opinions on this)
-Needles
-Thread: actually, synthetic sinew. Ask Johan about it. I prefer small, tight, woven synthetic sinew. I know Srigs uses a thicher style. YMMV.

Of those, the ones that are do or can't do without are:
sharp utility knife, awl for marking leather, punch for the holes, and needle/thread for stitching.

Oh yeah, sense of adventure, and patience.


The general steps are:
1: create a idea book. look online, shop around, read reviews, decide on the style, look, and features of your proposed holster
2: patterning (plan it out now or pay for it later)
3: rough cut to pattern (make sure of orientation and up / down in / outside of each piece
4: marking of barrel axis stitch line (gives a firm starting point and the pieces of leather stay together
5: general wet form to gun. Wet leather, press to contours of gun
5.5: if you have an additional leather layer for mouthband reinforcement, now is the time to mount it. Same goes for loops and attachments you can't get to once the holster is sewn in shape. Plan ahead and save the aggravation of undoing and reworking.
6: marking of gun perimeter stitch lines (really form it in tight and stitch just slightly tighter than you originally think you should. you CAN stretch leather. It's easier than the shrinking
7: stitch to gun profile
8: trim top and bottom nearly to final shape
9: glue large expanses of leather
10: punch and stitch outside perimeter of holster (end all stitch lines in a 4 stitch back stitch for snugnes)
11: trim to final shape
12: god, detailed forming to the gun
13: bevel and / or gouge decorate edges
14: burnish edges
15: touch up forming
16: let dry
17: dye
18: burnish edges and check for even coaing by dye. recoat if necessary
19: check forming. last chance
20: apply sealant
21: allow to dry
22: enjoy

In between each step, I occasionally put the gun in and check I'm getting it right.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:05 pm 
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plblark wrote:
-gouger for dressy edges and offset gouged lines. I've been using it less and less for stitch lines though since Gary Brommeland told me that the top layer is the strongest layer and by gouging out a channel to stitch you're adding a point of weakness.


I've never heard of that, and I've been in the leathercraft industry/business for over 15 years. I know of a great number of well-qualified leathercraft craftsman who use this tool daily. I doubt they would do so if such a situation as described here was the case. The only possibility that may exist is if you had a very thin piece of leather to begin with, such as 2-3 ounce in thickness, and you wanted to use it to gouge a line. Did he happen to mention what he was basing his comment on?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:59 pm 
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K-Man, a bit off topic but..... what is the current wait time for one of your rigs?

RTK


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:48 pm 
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I'll try to attend... it's still a bit far out to say for sure. if I do make it, I've got a fresh hunk of leather I can share...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:06 am 
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K-Man wrote:
plblark wrote:
-gouger for dressy edges and offset gouged lines. I've been using it less and less for stitch lines though since Gary Brommeland told me that the top layer is the strongest layer and by gouging out a channel to stitch you're adding a point of weakness.


I've never heard of that, and I've been in the leathercraft industry/business for over 15 years. I know of a great number of well-qualified leathercraft craftsman who use this tool daily. I doubt they would do so if such a situation as described here was the case. The only possibility that may exist is if you had a very thin piece of leather to begin with, such as 2-3 ounce in thickness, and you wanted to use it to gouge a line. Did he happen to mention what he was basing his comment on?


Gary was gracious enough to talk with me for a half hour or so on several topics. I took notes but they're not all that good :-). I'll tell you what, I'll PM him at Defensivecarry.com and see if what I posted accurately reflects what he said. This is the way I remember it and what my scribbled notes say but I could have misunderstood. I'll check.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:51 pm 
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A LONG Detailed reply from Gary pieced together from a couple PM's and a long phone call:

Gary Brommeland wrote:
I've been doing this full time for well over 20 years, and as a hobby for an additional 8 or so years. I still learn new stuff all the time.

the grooving thing came from saddle making. Saddles are constructed from substantially thicker leather than are most holsters, have relatively little stress on the stitches and are subject to a lot more abrasion than are holsters. By contrast, holsters tend to be under higher stress at key stitch points, are exposed to realitively little abrasion and (in the case of concealment gear at least) are constructed from substantially thinner leather. Holster making is a precise science that everyone who has ever cut a piece of leather thinks they understand. In fact, I'd say that there are less than a couple of dozen people on the planet who truly understand it.

Leatherwork is not at all created equal. I don't make saddles because I don't know crap about horses. I do happen to have a strong working knowledge of human anatomy & physiology, street tactics, firearms mechanics & their various eccentricities AND leather work. These disciplines must be blended together in order to make holsters effectively and well.


plblark wrote:
Could you be more specific about the gouged line taking the surface layer of leather off, the strength of the leather and where it lies, and the reason that gouging is used in the first place.

IIRC you said that the surface layer is the tanned layer and is thus stiffer and contains a lot of the strength of the leather.

Thinking on it, I assumed that it does a big portion of holding and reinforcing the shape through its inflexibility once formed. It makes sense.

IIRC gouging on holsters is functional and also decorative. Its function is to put the stitch flush with or below the surface so that hen things rub against it the stitch is less likely to be abraded. We're talking brush, other gear, fences, other animals, etc.. All the stitches on a saddle are carrying a significantly higher load / stress than most stitches on a holster.

thoughts and something you'd be OK having qouted would be GREAT. otherwise, just a general "this is the general gist of it" would be great.

I'm [trying] to understand the idea, try it, adapt my leather work to it, and help others understand it.

It's definitely amateur hour here at my place :-) But I[... have] holsters that function very well for me and do exactly what I need them to do. OK, I cheated. I used Comp Tac clips for securing them to the belt IWB :-)


Gary Brommeland wrote:
All of the leather is tanned - it would rot otherwise. The smooth surface (where the hair used to be) is called the grain. It is the strongest portion of a cowhide. As you progress deeper (into the corium), it gets less dense and therefore porportionately weaker. The flesh side of course does have some strength, but the first 1/10" to 1/8" of the hide (from the grain side) is the toughest part of the material.

When you groove a stitch line you are cutting thru the toughest part of the hide, into a much softer portion. While this does resist abraision well, it also makes the little sections of leather between the stitch holes pretty weak. If the leather is really thick, or the stitch has very little load, then it may be fine to do so - particularily if the area in question is subject to lots of abraision, as opposed to a high stress load on the stitch.

Holsters and saddles are different. Saddles are subject to lots of abrasion, and most of the stitches are not particularily load bearing. The stitching just serves to hold the layers together. Holsters are subject to much less abrasion, but the stitches can be subject to heavy loads. So, you've got to stitch for your particular application.

If you are making a western holster out of 9/10 and you want to groove it, you'll probably get away with it. If you are making a concealment holster out of 6/7 it would be a serious mistake to cut a groove prior to stitching. You cannot take different applications, differing weights of material, different loads and decide that a "one size fits all" approach is going to work on 'em all. You will not get the results that you seek that way. Each application is different.

As far as a working holster goes, I never, ever groove anything on a concealment holster. I live on what is becoming a working farm/ranch. I've rolled around on gravel under vehicles, walked thru a LOT of brush, hunted, strung/climbed fence, wrestled around with stock and never, ever lost a single stitch on a holster to abrasion (or anything else, for that matter). I've done the above all wearing a plain old Max-Con V or Def-Con. (Side note: Open carry today is just plain stupid. If an opponent sees that you are armed, they'll simply shoot you in the back. Having your firearm concealed - therefore having the element of surprise on your side can easily save your life.)

I don't know jack about making saddles, but I do know that most everything is attached to a rawhide/oak or fiberglass tree, and the leather layers are stitched to that. This will place very little stress on a saddle's stiching. Again, most of the stitches are just holding layers of leather together - much like a lining on a holster.

By comparison, if a holster is forcefully snagged (ie the doorframe of a vehicle) most of your body weight is transferred directly to the belt loop's stiching. In a disarm attempt, several hundred pounds of force can be applied to the welt. A holster's stitching is by far more critical from a load bearing standpoint than it is from an abrasion viewpoint. Furthermore, much of today's leatherworking techniques have not adapted to new materials. Linen thread is realitively weak, very prone to abrasion damage and gets weaker with bacteria, salt (sweat), UV exposure and time. The acids in the leather are pretty rough on it too. By contrast, modern polyester thread is much stronger, impervious to most all types of rot and is highly UV resistant. It is also MUCH more abrasion resistant than is linen.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:48 pm 
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plblark:

Thanks for posting that information. It was interesting to read one's theories, and there's much that could be said with respect to that, and I'll leave it at that. I wish you and the others continued success in the making of holsters.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:20 pm 
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I plan to be there. I have the basic tools* and lots of scrap leather for practicing (thanks, ttousi).


* All from Tandy: Hand Stitching Kit (Overstitch wheel, stitching awl, groover, needles, thread, wax and The Art of Hand Sewing Leather, by Al Stohlman), stitching pony, Craftool Adjustable Groover, utility knife, wooden cutting board, some black dye and wax.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:00 pm 
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It will be good to see you there Andrew.

I don't grove any of my leather because Nate from Ugly Bald Guy provided the same info to me that you received Paul.

I do have three custom saddles and the English saddle is not grooved but the two western saddles are. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:28 pm 
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I'll be there if you have any more room. ;)
I've got some 3-4 and 7-8 oz leather, my small collection of tools, thread etc, dremel stylus, and 1 or 2 unfinished projects.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:17 pm 
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Srigs wrote:
Nate from Ugly Bald Guy provided the same info


I suspect he got that piece of advice the same place I did ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Srigs wrote:
I do have three custom saddles and the English saddle is not grooved but the two western saddles are. :)


That must be due to Levis being more abrasive that linen pants...... :roll:

Is the English, side saddle.........:P :P :P :P

.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:45 pm 
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hammAR wrote:
Srigs wrote:
I do have three custom saddles and the English saddle is not grooved but the two western saddles are. :)


That must be due to Levis being more abrasive that linen pants...... :roll:

.


Or steeplechase poles being gentler than barbed wire :-)

*says plblark who will now NOT be getting an invitation out for riding lessons :-) *


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:49 pm 
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hammAR wrote:
Srigs wrote:
I do have three custom saddles and the English saddle is not grooved but the two western saddles are. :)


That must be due to Levis being more abrasive that linen pants...... :roll:

.


Levis were for "Sod Busters" and Miners, no self respecting coyboy would have worn them in the real west :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

Wool was the meterial of choice for most outer clothes a hundred years ago. If you don't believe me put your levis on and then soak them with water and stand outside in october through april, then try the same thing with wool pants, you'll soon see why :P :P :P :P :P

[/hijack]
:) :) :) :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:46 pm 
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hammAR wrote:
Srigs wrote:
I do have three custom saddles and the English saddle is not grooved but the two western saddles are. :)


That must be due to Levis being more abrasive that linen pants...... :roll:

Is the English, side saddle.........:P :P :P :P

.


Partially true on the difference in pants for English vs Western. The English saddle is not Side Saddle. :wink:

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