The presence and popularity of this sarcastically-named forum testifies loudly to the anger and frustration that some hold toward law enforcement.

So, imagine you were Michael Campion, or imagine you were the chair of whatever house or senate committee deals with this stuff. How would you improve law enforcement in Minnesota?

Wow, now that is an excellent question. It must be rhetorical, however, because there is no answer to it.

The POST requirements did not improve things, IMHO. With the exception of the horrible accident response time and techniques back then, I believe the good old days of asking a veteran "Hey, you want a part-time night job?" was a good hiring technique for most police departments.

Forty years ago a blind eye was turned toward officers that used department time to further their Las Vegas travel agency businesses. It was also expected that some officers would sell football number tabs out of their hats during working hours as they visited bars and restaurants all throughout the East Side of St. Paul.

Today the scrutiny has become much more intense, and subsequently the antics of police officers have become much more sophisticated. I would much rather have a return of the "boys will be boys" attitude of yesteryear than the near Mafia "brotherhood" of today.

1) Ban police unions.

2) Return control of the police to the people who pay their salaries, i.e., us. Maybe democratically elected police commissions, in the larger jurisdictions (Mpls/St.Paul).

3) Older minimum starting ages, and possibly real-world private (non-security) employment experience as a hiring requirement.

4) More non-"special" people involved in cadet training.

5) No more IADs. Department investigations done by outside agencies.

6) De-militarization. People who have the veneer of an occupying army will eventually start to act like one. Simple things, like elimination of military rank names, "softer" uniforms, more facial hair allowed in dress code.

Alternatively, we could use a volunteer firefighter model. Most cops become part time civilians, with only training, investigations, and command cadres as career professionals.

Just a couple of things that I do not agree with:

Most companies/organizations that have unions usually deserve them. Whether they agree with their member's behavior, most unions will just try to enforce the conditions of their union agreements. Many of the conditions in those agreements stem from incidents that have previously occurred when management might have treated employees badly.

The reason that Police organizations have ranks (or some kind of organizational structure) is that it is supposed to build morale and foster a sense of professionalism. You want police officers to be proud of their organizations and therefore not want to let them down. You do not want a disorganized or demoralized police force. That will only increase the number of egregious incidents.

As for accountability, aren't most police commissioners accountable to either a mayor or city councils (elected officials, in other words)? To stop these incidents, you have to set down your policies before hand, make sure that everyone is aware of them and (rigidly) enforce them (and weed out the offenders). A lot of this attitude comes down from the top, if the higher ups are willing to countenance this behavior, it will continue.

I've got to say this; All of the Police Officers, Sheriff's Deputies and State Troopers that I have personally dealt with have been nothing but courteous and professional. Of course, I have always been courteous to them to start with, however, I am aware that there are bad eggs in every profession and you read about them all the time.

Not picking on you Chunkstyle, just my opinion.

the following will look like it is tongue and cheek. . . . if it offends, it was meant tongue in cheek, if not. . . . well

5 year plan. Good change never comes fast. Two of the following per year in any order:

1. Patrol officers are not allowed to carry firearms or the SWAT team should be disbanded. . . one or the other, not both. They can make their own choice but it should be either patrol with firearms or SWAT not both.

2. Canidates from out of state with nationally accredited Bachelors degrees (in Crim Just or Law Enf) and relevant experience will not be passed over in favor of POST certified locals with 1/2 the education and experience playing H.S. football.

3. Accountability of the community policing flavor, officers must live in the precinct they are assigned to, officers must make a quota of non-criminal/ non-traffic citizen contacts "I listened to Mrs. Jones about the thug with the loud stereo two doors down and her recollection of the minutes of the last knitting club meeting, it was the 15 minutes between my 4th and 5th calls of the night" should be common place in officer logs & regarded as legitimate and neccessary parts of patrol. Citizens should know their officers and perhaps community block parties or some such should be used to build those relationships.

4. Just something personal from my dealings with MPD, non-patrol officers called every business day for a month (or more) and failing to return a single call should have their pensions yanked and walking papers printed. This one goes out to you Officer Dale Barsness Even one returned call, even if it was only to say "F off and die" woulda been better customer service than the months of answering machine and nadda in the returned call dept. Dale, you are a disgrace to badges everywhere and a shameful excuse for a biped. Worse was the cowardice when I went to your section in person and you told the deskie to tell me you weren't there & I waited for your captain and midway into the conversation with him you "magically" appeared from inside the section and threatened to arrest me for asking a question. Glad you have a new captian now, she has already indicated that she realizes what a low life you are & hopefully she will do the right thing with your career . .. yes, Dale, I would like fries with that.

5. Warrants should have probable cause listed and the right doors and or property should be kicked in/ taken. There should be consequences not medals for getting it wrong. Criminal damage to property is the minimum charge an officer on a wrong door raid should get. Each officer should be willing to stake their career on each raid . .. if they aren't that sure, they shouldn't serve the warrant. If they do anyway and get it wrong, they should be treated with the same system as if Joe Public kicked in your door and started taking stuff regardless of whether it was on his Christmas list or not.

6. All non-patrol officers are required to work a number of shifts per month on patrol, from chief to desk sarge . . . . everybody sees at least a little of the streets each month, no exceptions, sicktime comes out of your non-patrol days. Three weeks vacation/ sicktime still leaves you a week on the street even if you are the chief! Four weeks vacation and two of sicktime gives you two weeks on the street. This is tied to the community policing aspect & non-patrol officers have the same residency requirement i.e. a desk sarge must work her week of patrol in the precinct she lives in.

7. As Chunk said

8. As Chunk said

9. Traffic is radically altered such that speed enforcement takes a back seat to red light running, tailgating and other violations that statistically cause more accidents. Follow statistics, whatever is causing the most accidents at a given time should be given the highest priority for enforcement.

10. Officers and victim advocates are required to offer crime victims information on MN carry law. Officers are required to know the law such that they can answer any basic question. Yearly, officers must take a 25 question quiz on MN 624.714, any wrong answer requires the officer to take a permit to carry class on the officer's dime. At least 12 different quizzes should be in the pool, administered at random.

Given the current pay levels and working conditions, why would anyone with a four-year degree want to work in local law enforcement? And if they did, would the results be better than they have been at the various federal agencies where the entrance standards and pay are higher? BATF, ICE, and FBI aren't exactly paragons of collaborative community policing or willing upholders of the bill of rights.



I would like to paraphrase this as saying, in essence, "cops shouldn't fuck up." No one can legislate away fuckups or eliminate them by executive order. It's an outcome, not a decision. Among the knobs that can be turned are the criteria for no-knock raids, so as an example a reduction in their use as a matter of policy is something that actually could be changed.



I see both sides of this. The main premise of speed enforcement is that excessive speed tends to lead to other unsafe behaviors. Tailgating and road rage aren't usually a problem if both cars are trying to cruise at about the same speed.

I think Chunk's #3 is critical.

There's no way that some 21-year old fresh out of tech college knows shit about shit. Sorry kiddies.

Go out, bust your ass in the real world for a few years, learn what everyday people in the community go through by BEING ONE OF THEM, and then, if you still decide that you want to serve, come back when you're 30 and smarter.

Most police work isn't about who can run the fastest or shoot the straightest. The best weapon a good cop has is between their ears, not hanging on their duty belt.

-Mark

In an ideal world, it is ABOUT community service. I posted this one up as a four year degree holder from one of the best Crim Justice schools in the country & 2/3 through a Masters with great big heaping gobs of relevant experience (of the flavor that had more than 360 convictions in a single year {among several} & multiple companies uniformed and otherwise). . .. but hey, when I got here I couldn't get a job in LE without going through half a year of community college on my dime while working full time + and starting a family. Way cool law ya'll have there. . .. sorry it guarantees you a lowwer grade of service! Just thought that maybe your police academy would teach the specifics of MN law & ensure fit officers served communities . . . . rather that POST, which ensures that officers that have paid MN colleges money are the only ones that can be hired.


Um yeah, even they wouldn't argue that . .. what is in dispute is the consequences when officers clearly and plainly violate the 4th Amendment. Now 4A may not seem very important while your door is where it should be . . . . but let me tell ya . . . . when your door is halfway into the living room on a no-knock that has no probable cause, when a pet dies, when property gets held that isn't on the warrant or illegal & comes back broken or abused, when you have to pay your condo association (near a months mortgage payment) for a door broken down on a warrant that didn't have an expressed probable cause well hey. .. . I don't blame ya Mostlyharmless for not taking it personally because it didn't happen to you. . . yet. Hey, it happened to us. I am inclined to speak on this matter and have that peculiar authority that comes with hindsight. Good luck with your foresight, hope it doesn't meet my hindsight . . .but don't be suprised if it does and don't be suprised if I rub your nose in it like a puppy that crapped the floor. Don't you dare bitch if it comes to that. I earned the right to say my peace with the blood of a sweet and gentle St. Bernard, he was loved throughout the neighborhood and always regarded as a gentle giant . . . too bad MPD killed him for no reason. Maybe you'll be their next kill. . . . I am sure they can whitewash a justification. Luck. Hope you have it.

It's not the police that are broken, but our society in general.

We have far too many folks who think that they have no responsibility for their own safety. If we taught our citizens to be more self-reliant, they'd be threatened less by the world, and would pressure the police less to provide the sort of absolute security that no amount of policing can provide.

Yes. Personal responsibility has been the biggest obstacle I have found in bringing our truth to the Anti 2A.

Oh yes, I'd say that 5 out of every 6 cops I have met were good guys. But the 1 of 6 is too many to tolerate. What's more, there is still too much of the "us vs. them" attitude, that "we are the chosen ones" thing going on, and it makes even the good ones turn a blind eye to the abuses of the bad.

Good luck with that. Unfortuantely when it comes to management and worker bees, we don't seem to do a very good job working towards a common goal. Instead both sides need big bats in a sort of Mutual Assured Destruction arrangement to keep the other side mildly honest.

Sure, that's worked great for Chicago. Is there anything politics can't solve?

I've heard this thrown around before and I certainly understand why. Maturity is a difficult trait to put minimum ages on. I understand the point you are making, and it's is a valid one in my opinion, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you have to be 30 before you can apply to a department.

Cops need to learn the law and tactics. Other than lawyers and cops, who else would have the relevant experience to teach these issues?

To a certain degree, yes. Every performance complaint about rudeness or whining about tickets that were received need to be investigated by the BCA. But on the big stuff, sure. Now define the big stuff to everyone's satisfaction.


Law enforcement has had ranks, uniforms and facial hair for a hundred-plus years. It doesn't seem related to the issues we're having with law enforcement today.


Could you explain this further? I'm afraid I don't understand your comparison to the firefighter model, but I would like to.

I don't see the wisdom in having police officers respond to potentially dangerous situations unarmed. Given that number of calls officers respond to are potentially dangerous, such as domestic violence, assaults, and traffic stops that officers respond to per shift, it doesn't make sense to only send SWAT members to those calls (you'd have to have one large SWAT team). The current model of having police officers handle the day-to-day calls and have the SWAT team handle issues that require special weapons or tactics typical patrol officers don't have seems prudent to me.

One possible arrangement is to have a statewide SWAT team and prohibit local agencies from having their own teams, but this provides problems with local control. If the Bloomington SWAT team went crazy, the residents of Bloomington would have a better chance of correcting the problem that if a state SWAT team behaved badly in their city.

It's my understanding that this is already how reciprocity works. POST-like certified individuals from other states can work here without going to "skills" or taking college classes in MN. Three years of experience and a college degree or five years of experience without a degree gets you in.

I'm not a fan of any quotas in law enforcement. While I do agree LE and the general public need to interact more often, I can tell you that a lot of the general public want nothing to do with law enforcement. As silly as they were, Minneapolis had those kool-aid stands - how many residents showed up to make friends with cops? How many people attend the "citizens academy" that their local police department or sheriff's office holds each year?

You are definitely right, the relationship needs to be better and both sides need to commit to putting in the effort.

[Your personal (and seemingly quite valid) rant against a specific Minneapolis officer deleted]

I agree critical errors in judgement should have consequences. I don't agree with holding an entire team accountable for the go/no-go decision by someone who should be informed. You can't have an investigator decide SWAT needs to kick in a door and then have all 10-15 SWAT guys perform their own independent investigations to make sure the intel they have is right. The guys have to rely on their supervisors. I'd like to see the chief law enforcement officer of an agency have to sign off on all SWAT/no-knock operations. Stake that guy's or gal's career on the right door being kicked in will yield fewer screw-ups.

While I don't agree with forcing people to live where they don't want (what if they have family elsewhere or a spouse that wants a shorter commute?), I wholeheartedly support the initiative that anyone with a badge should work the road a certain number of days a year. I know of at least once agency that has this rule and it isn't without problems - investigators with heavy caseloads fall even further behind while working the road and it can be difficult to find the time between meetings, hearings and training - but I believe it's a worthwhile effort.

I think the idea is that people who are exceeding the speed limit by 10 to 15 mph are the ones who could end up tailgating or getting into accidents. I would like to see better unmarked vehicles designed specifically to catch the type of folks you're talking about. Instead of sitting on the side of the road with a laser or radar, drive amongst the traffic and nab the morons.

I understand your point, but this would lead to an enormous amount of "mandated" information for an officer to present at each call once we allow legislators into the mix. I definitely would like to see more departments offer training on the carry law as part of their yearly mandated POST training and I don't know why they don't. It shouldn't be a cost issue, compared to the other training that agencies do it's probably comparatively cheap.

I wouldn't disarm the police, I'd simply remove their authority for carrying.

IOW, in my perfect world a cop could carry only under his authority as a law-abiding citizen, under exactly the same restrictions as anyone else.

I think the idea is that people who are exceeding the speed limit by 10 to 15 mph are the ones who could end up tailgating or getting into accidents.

Have been a "speeder" by your definition for 45 years and have never had an accident because of it, do not tailgate or get into accidents and drove 70-90 miles a day just back and forth to work for most of those years which works out to over 25K per year.

IMO it is tailgaters, persons weaving in an out of traffic, red light runners, people pre-occupied with whatever from cell phones to putting on make up who cause the most accidents but it's easier to catch speeders.

Besides, speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop that does that.