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 Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest 
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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:53 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
Someone who knows the guy who was shot suggests witholding judgement until we get all the facts...... :cry:

Always good advice.
8)

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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:20 am 
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Erik_Pakieser wrote:
When I went to my 1st law enforcement academy (22 years ago) we were taught that the FIRST thing we do when making contact is identify ourselves, even if in uniform.

The SECOND thing we were taught to do is explain why we were making contact (reason for stop, etc.).

These two little things go a long, long way towards easing tension and keeping a contact from spiraling out of control.



Well, most police don't do that, in my experience. They walk up and try what I call passive intimidation", by asking leading questions, instead of practicing gracious behavior. Polite behavior would be to introduce oneself, not assume the person you approach should "know who you are". Next thing would be to explain "truthfully" why you interupted the person. It's more than a "good evening Sir, may i see your license and insurance card?".

Next, (when the citizen has to actually PROMPT the LEO on his failure to be gracious), would be to ANSWER the question "Why did you stop me?" the FIRST time instead of replying with an irrelevant question. Even if both parties maintain a polite tone of voice for the recorder, it does NOT mean that intimidation did not take place. (And consequently, more police enemies created.)


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:15 pm 
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The "leading questions" technique was developed in the 1990s as a way to get into the drug intradiction business. It's called a "stealth interrogation" and it's designed to get you to start talking so the officer can develop a Probable Cause to search your car. I've used the technique myself, but not before introducing myself and explaining why I stopped the subject.

Sometimes I think today's cops go out looking for fights...sad thing is, I think that devices like the Taser reduce the consequences of force for the officers and encourage them to use aggressive tactics when they could be using good interpersonal communications skills instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:47 am 
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Something posted on an LEO board, in response to the article about the shooting:

Quote:
This might help. I've been gathering helpful hints from news accounts so here are the rules of engagement according to the media:
Never shoot anyone over 60.
Never shoot anyone under 18.
Never shoot anyone who has a disability.
Never shoot anyone on their birthday or the night before their wedding.
Never shoot anyway who likes children, was going to make something of themselves, or had an interesting hobby.
Never shoot anyone of a different race, gender, or culture than you.
Never shoot anyone unless they have a bigger, closer, and more visible weapon than you.
Never shoot anyone who is naked or almost naked.
Always try to figure out why somebody wants to kill you; it's obviously something you said or did that provokes them.
Always give the person at least one chance to shoot or beat you first.Tasers are evil but you may use them if the person has a gun.
Since you have unlimited back-up immediately at all times, two big strong police officers can always easily subdue another person due to your special training and other superpowers without harming them.
See how easy it is?


If there is anything to be learned from this incident, it's how difficult it is to justify the taking of a human life in self-defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:16 am 
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Erik_Pakieser wrote:
Something posted on an LEO board, in response to the article about the shooting:

Quote:
This might help. I've been gathering helpful hints from news accounts so here are the rules of engagement according to the media:
Never shoot anyone over 60.
Never shoot anyone under 18.
Never shoot anyone who has a disability.
Never shoot anyone on their birthday or the night before their wedding.
Never shoot anyway who likes children, was going to make something of themselves, or had an interesting hobby.
Never shoot anyone of a different race, gender, or culture than you.
Never shoot anyone unless they have a bigger, closer, and more visible weapon than you.
Never shoot anyone who is naked or almost naked.
Always try to figure out why somebody wants to kill you; it's obviously something you said or did that provokes them.
Always give the person at least one chance to shoot or beat you first.Tasers are evil but you may use them if the person has a gun.
Since you have unlimited back-up immediately at all times, two big strong police officers can always easily subdue another person due to your special training and other superpowers without harming them.
See how easy it is?


If there is anything to be learned from this incident, it's how difficult it is to justify the taking of a human life in self-defense.


Aren't we talking about using a firearm to end a fist-fight? The dead person was unarmed. The dead person had, according to statements, quit fighting. An out-of-uniform officer, in an unmarked car, making a traffic stop? Did the officer use "lights and siren" or didn't his Ford Fiesta have those installed? While this tragic event has all the earmarks necessary for a Medal of Valor to be awarded by the Minneapolis Police Department, it doesn't look or smell right out of the box.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Accepting that story, there is definitely a lot to question. The argument could also be made that the officer had been overpowered by the subject and was afraid he was in imminent danger of being disarmed.

Statistics show that you are most likely to be attacked not by an armed assailant, but a group of attackers who will beat you with fists and feet. If you shoot one of these "unarmed" people in self-defense, you would face the same level of scrutiny.

This case has many questions which need to be answered. All I'm saying is that the accusations being leveled at this officer are the same ones which would be leveled at a permit holder after the shoot. I'll personally withold judgement until I hear more details about the facts of the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Permit holders are to be reluctant participants. I doubt that any permit holder in possession of his/her faculties would attempt to stop someone who has been driving erratically, or speeding, and consequently get themselves into a situation where they are in a fist-fight . . . and after which they shoot the other participant at point-blank range.

LEO's are not held to that standard.

For me, however, the quick leap from fists to firearm leaves a lot of explaining to be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:54 pm 
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As I posted earlier here - and maybe I didn't make this clear - the officer's initial approach is definitely questionable.

Looking at the incident, beyond the initial approach, at the shooting itself, the question of self-defense is also blurry.

The lesson we can all learn from this case is, if you pull the trigger, there will be intense scrutiny of your actions. My point was that we as permit holders, who are generally supportive of other permit holders when they are involved in shootings, seem to be quick to second-guess the shooters if they are carrying tin.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Check out the Opinion Exchange letter by Neil Haugerud in the July 28th Star Tribune. Neil Haugerud was Fillmore County sheriff from 1959 to 1967 and served in the Minnesota Legislature from 1969 to 1977. Some excerpts include:

"We're creating police who are quick to shoot."

"Minnesota does not have a death penalty, and certainly not one for resisting arrest."

"This type of response by police is not an aberration; it is a national crisis of alarming frequency throughout the United States."

"It is my belief that an average, "untrained" citizen, if confronted with the same situation as many police officers often are, would avoid the gun at all costs. Most people are not programmed to kill. However, our "highly trained" officers seem to be turning more and more to their guns to settle disputes. If this is what police officers are being trained to do, maybe it's time that we searched for some new methods."

"We could begin with legislation eliminating the POST Board and require all police to have extensive training in communications that would include neurolinguistics and other up-to-date methods of interactions before they ever pick up a gun."

This link to the Star Trib worked for me (YMMV):http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/51816277.html


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:18 pm 
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LEO's are trained, and paid, to handle stressful situations that permit holders are not. LEO's are supposed to keep their wits when others around them are losing theirs. Because of that, yes, they should come under greater scrutiny. I see nothing but positives coming from that premise.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:46 pm 
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Traveler wrote:
LEO's are trained, and paid, to handle stressful situations that permit holders are not. LEO's are supposed to keep their wits when others around them are losing theirs. Because of that, yes, they should come under greater scrutiny. I see nothing but positives coming from that premise.


And that is something I strongly agree with.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:17 pm 
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Erik_Pakieser wrote:
As I posted earlier here - and maybe I didn't make this clear - the officer's initial approach is definitely questionable.

Looking at the incident, beyond the initial approach, at the shooting itself, the question of self-defense is also blurry.

The lesson we can all learn from this case is, if you pull the trigger, there will be intense scrutiny of your actions. My point was that we as permit holders, who are generally supportive of other permit holders when they are involved in shootings, seem to be quick to second-guess the shooters if they are carrying tin.


The initial approach is the part of this that really gets under my skin. Why on earth is a office NOT in uniform in an unmarked SUV doing a traffic stop? Even if I were to accept this as reasonable, why didn't he do a better job of establishing his identity as an officer? Franky I bet a good number of us would have had works (or more) for some jackoff in a polo shirt walking up to us and demanding answers. We all seamed to rally behind Mr. Treptow, I really don't see a difference. Force was met with force and this guy got shoot when he disengaged from the fight. (supposedly once he saw a badge) Lesson there keep control until you know what the other guy is going to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Like Erik, where I really have trouble with this is that it starts with some really bad off-duty policing. No traffic offense is so urgent it cannot be called in.

The common thread with this, the GSF, and the bungled no-knock raids is that building cases through solid police work takes a back seat to harassing perceived troublemakers through abuse of discretion. When searches, forfeiture, arrest, and interrogation become the punishment rather than being incidental to a process supervised by the courts, justice suffers.


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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:23 pm 
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I hate to bump this thread, but I was reading the PoliceOne article (reprint of local sources) on the shooting, which had a local news video attached. It is clear to me that the group knew that the deputy was a LEO.

Please watch the video, and pay particular attention to the guy who starts at 1:18-19 into the segment:

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shooti ... armed-man/

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 Post subject: Re: Kasota man shot by deputy during attempted arrest
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:35 pm 
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The man who was shot would have been pretty familier with police according to people who knew him. He probably won't be the poster child for victims of over zealous police. :(

I couldn't work the video.


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