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 Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner 
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 Post subject: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:58 am 
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http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2009 ... _barr_blog
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No good deed goes unpunished — that’s a lesson George Boggs of Fayetteville, North Carolina, learned earlier this month when he voluntarily turned his handgun over to the local police for safe-keeping while he went into the hospital following an automobile wreck. When Mr. Boggs (who maintains a valid concealed-carry permit for the handgun) later attempted to retrieve his firearm, the police said, sorry, we’ve sent it out for ballistics testing and can’t give it back to you yet.

Apparently the police in North Carolina believe themselves empowered to retain a law-abiding citizen’s firearm, and test it to see if it matches any firearms or ammunition on which the police have records that were used in crimes, regardless of whether they have any suspicion whatsoever that the firearm is illegal or has ever been used in the commission of a crime. And, the police do this even if the person has voluntarily and temporarily left a firearm with the police for safe keeping. In this case also, the owner of the handgun did not want the firearm fired because it had never been fired since he purchased it new, and he believed its value would be diminished.

Tough luck, according to the law enforcement authorities; so long as they get a firearm — however they get a firearm — they keep it as long as they want to test it, and , if it matches ballistically with some record they have, they would keep it indefinitely.

So much for property rights. So much for Fourth Amendment guarantees against unreasonable search and seizure. And so much for being a good citizen. When it comes to firearms, many law enforcement agencies believe they can do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:32 pm 
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What this tells me is if I ever have to go into a hospital, I refuse to hand it over, and keep it in my possession until a family member or trusted friend can bring a box for me to put it in and send it home.

Again, I know there's good cops out there...but as I try to live my life, I have to run with the adage: "Plan for the worst, hope for the best."


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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Quote:
Again, I know there's good cops out there...


Four-leaf clovers, too. I've found two in my lifetime. At some point real soon, I think we can be done throwing that qaulifier into every duscussion of police wrongdoing.

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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:08 pm 
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bensdad wrote:
Quote:
Again, I know there's good cops out there...


Four-leaf clovers, too. I've found two in my lifetime. At some point real soon, I think we can be done throwing that qaulifier into every duscussion of police wrongdoing.


I threw it out there to dead-end the inevitable discussion of "well there are good cops..." because we all know there are, so I just tossed it out right away so that pointless loop wouldn't waste 4 pages :-D

EDIT: Besides, we don't hear much about good cops. What they do doesn't make the news. (Other than when they bust a major case, put a bad dude(ette)(s) behind bars, or clear someone's name) We don't have to discuss (much) about good cops. They operate in a sane, legal manner :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:27 am 
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What would be a typical policy for hospitals when they take property off of you? They would be considered responsible for a wallet, right?

One possible prick move- When you're at the hospital, if they give you drugs and the cops consider you in possession of your gun, they may try to charge you for carrying under the influence (depending on the state's law). If the cops show up at the hospital to get a statement or something.


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 Post subject: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:47 pm 
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This question "Fourth Amendment Violation in Police Policy of Test-Firing All Guns They Get, Even With No Individualized Suspicion?" is being discussed at The Volokh Conspiracy.

Factual background: Man injured in auto accident VOLUNTARILY gave gun to police for safekeeping as he was loaded in the ambulance for transport to the hospital. They run S.N., want to do ballistic testing, and otherwise mess with it before they will return it (to the totally innocent owner).

The RULE to remember is (as stated by a participant in the discussion):
Quote:
The moral of the story is that one should never, ever cooperate with the police in any way, shape, or form solely out of a desire to be a good, responsible citizen. The risk of them trading on your good faith to fuck you over is simply too great.


http://volokh.com/posts/1251850460.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:18 am 
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Give the police an inch and they will take a mile.

Police - "Can we hold that gun for you for safe keeping while you go to the hospital"?

Me - "No thanks. I have a permit and it is perfectly safe with me thank you very much".

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 Post subject: Re: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:48 am 
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havegunjoe wrote:
Give the police an inch and they will take a mile.

Police - "Can we hold that gun for you for safe keeping while you go to the hospital"?

Me - "No thanks. I have a permit and it is perfectly safe with me thank you very much".



Yep, I believe most hospitals have a protocol for handling guns that come in with a patient who's been in an accident, etc. I believe they lock it up until you leave. That would be a much better course of action that giving to the police. They should be required to return it to you the MOMENT you show up and ask for it as long as you have ID. To do otherwise should be criminal.


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 Post subject: Re: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:13 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13967

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 Post subject: Re: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:07 pm 
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340PD wrote:
havegunjoe wrote:
Give the police an inch and they will take a mile.

Police - "Can we hold that gun for you for safe keeping while you go to the hospital"?

Me - "No thanks. I have a permit and it is perfectly safe with me thank you very much".



Yep, I believe most hospitals have a protocol for handling guns that come in with a patient who's been in an accident, etc. I believe they lock it up until you leave. That would be a much better course of action that giving to the police. They should be required to return it to you the MOMENT you show up and ask for it as long as you have ID. To do otherwise should be criminal.


I used to work in a hospital here in the area, and you are correct, security has safes that are used to lock up weapons (of all types) that are brought in with patients. BUT...hospitals get iffy when it comes to a gun (especially loaded or comes in with a patient under 'questionable' circumstances) and may prefer to have police handle the weapon for them (since most security staff don't carry firearms). So I wouldn't always count on the hospital holding on to it.


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 Post subject: Well, ...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:59 pm 
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I don't want to suggest in any way that what the PD was doing was proper, but...

Quote:
the owner of the handgun did not want the firearm fired because it had never been fired since he purchased it new, and he believed its value would be diminished.


What kind of idiot chooses as a carry piece a gun that he's never fired? Seems to me that the time you need to actually use it is not the best time to learn that it doesn't actually work...

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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:22 pm 
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Saint Paul does this. They will not release a seized firearms until three years have passed. In the interim, they give the gun to the BCA for testing. I have a student who is dealing with this right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:58 pm 
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I believe the gun in this case was not seized, rather it was surrendered for safekeeping (in good faith, I presume).

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 Post subject: Re: Never give the police an inch.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:36 pm 
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kimberman wrote:
This question "Fourth Amendment Violation in Police Policy of Test-Firing All Guns They Get, Even With No Individualized Suspicion?" is being discussed at The Volokh Conspiracy.

Factual background: Man injured in auto accident VOLUNTARILY gave gun to police for safekeeping as he was loaded in the ambulance for transport to the hospital. They run S.N., want to do ballistic testing, and otherwise mess with it before they will return it (to the totally innocent owner).

The RULE to remember is (as stated by a participant in the discussion):
Quote:
The moral of the story is that one should never, ever cooperate with the police in any way, shape, or form solely out of a desire to be a good, responsible citizen. The risk of them trading on your good faith to fuck you over is simply too great.


http://volokh.com/posts/1251850460.shtml



Methinks the RULE should be printed on T shirts, posters, bumper stickers, front and back covers of firearms instructors manuals, etc.

I'd have it tatooed to my forehead, but there's that needle allergy thing... :lol:

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