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 Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia. 
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 Post subject: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Thugs in blue do in another innocent person.

http://www.theagitator.com/2009/09/03/g ... drug-bust/

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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:05 pm 
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But they got to go home safe... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:05 pm 
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I found the surveillance video of this incident on a news site local to the event.

It's going to come down to whether or not the officers identified themselves as such.

If they did, this will need to move out of Isolated Incidents. The driver almost ran over a police officer in reverse at high speed. If he knew they were cops, then he escalated to deadly force first.

If they did NOT properly identify themselves, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Along those lines...

You've got a car full of cops, so it's not like these guys were deep cover. Why didn't they have flashers on that damn SUV? Might have avoided all this, and a man might still be alive.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:35 pm 
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I am curious as to from where the fatal shot is fired. Is it after the car is past the officers or when the car is turning and still has the possibility of hitting the officer? The video does not seem to show that.


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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:05 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I found the surveillance video of this incident on a news site local to the event.

It's going to come down to whether or not the officers identified themselves as such.

If they did, this will need to move out of Isolated Incidents. The driver almost ran over a police officer in reverse at high speed. If he knew they were cops, then he escalated to deadly force first.

If they did NOT properly identify themselves, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Along those lines...

You've got a car full of cops, so it's not like these guys were deep cover. Why didn't they have flashers on that damn SUV? Might have avoided all this, and a man might still be alive.

-Mark
Here's where I disagree: I think that it's unreasonable to expect a normal, law-abiding guy going about his business to immediately process the sounds of shouting from a bunch of guys leaping out of a car and pointing guns at him. (Even if he could have heard them, which has yet to be established. Some people drive with the radio and/or a/c on.)

Which is why I think that the whole jumping out of cars, pointing guns, yelling, and then often shooting folks procedures are so seriously wrong, and have demonstrably resulted in bad shoots -- like, say, the Diallo one. And, apparently, this one. The promiscuous use of the jumping out of cars, pointing guns, yelling, and then often shooting folks procedures gets too many innocent civilians killed, and the benefits are negligible.

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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:32 am 
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I disagree too.

Two years ago the Roseville SWAT Team (hold your laughter) spent a week practicing in the old house next to mine before it was torn down.

When they would enter the house there would be this loud road of voices unintelligible from my porch. So I walked over to listen. Standing behind the Lt. about 25 feet away the sound was still a loud roar of voices in an unintelligible blur. I could not understand what they were saying. On the next round, I got closer (the Lt. knew me) and tried listening more carefully. Same roar of voices (six large men shouting at the same time and out of sync) but same unintelligible blur. So I asked him "What are they saying?" His answer was "Police. Don't move." My response was "No one can understand a word of their shouting. Certainly no one with the TV on would comprehend any of it." Then I suggested "Why don't you have ONE PERSON giving commands and use a bullhorn if you think you need more volume?"

When I was in the military one thing they emphasized was that one person is in command and only that person gives commands. That way there is no confusion.

Others can repeat the commands later if they have to be passed on over a distance. But there is ONE voice of command. That's the only way you can hope that 40 people will have the same/similar understanding. 1 voice thru 40 minds (40 interpretations) is more comprehensible than 5 voices thru 40 minds (200 interpretations) with confusion in each mind.

Current police practice seems guaranteed to insure that the target of the assault cannot comprehend the orders until someone is inches from his ears (and can get through the confusion created by the entry). You can't have it BOTH WAYS -- stun and disorient AND comprehend and decide to comply. Current SWAT tactics try to do both. Often unsuccessfully. Tragically so.

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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:21 am 
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kimberman wrote:
...
Current police practice seems guaranteed to insure that the target of the assault cannot comprehend the orders until someone is inches from his ears (and can get through the confusion created by the entry). You can't have it BOTH WAYS -- stun and disorient AND comprehend and decide to comply. Current SWAT tactics try to do both. Often unsuccessfully. Tragically so.


This.


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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:59 pm 
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joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
I found the surveillance video of this incident on a news site local to the event.

It's going to come down to whether or not the officers identified themselves as such.

If they did, this will need to move out of Isolated Incidents. The driver almost ran over a police officer in reverse at high speed. If he knew they were cops, then he escalated to deadly force first.

If they did NOT properly identify themselves, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Along those lines...

You've got a car full of cops, so it's not like these guys were deep cover. Why didn't they have flashers on that damn SUV? Might have avoided all this, and a man might still be alive.

-Mark
Here's where I disagree: I think that it's unreasonable to expect a normal, law-abiding guy going about his business to immediately process the sounds of shouting from a bunch of guys leaping out of a car and pointing guns at him. (Even if he could have heard them, which has yet to be established. Some people drive with the radio and/or a/c on.)

Which is why I think that the whole jumping out of cars, pointing guns, yelling, and then often shooting folks procedures are so seriously wrong, and have demonstrably resulted in bad shoots -- like, say, the Diallo one. And, apparently, this one. The promiscuous use of the jumping out of cars, pointing guns, yelling, and then often shooting folks procedures gets too many innocent civilians killed, and the benefits are negligible.


Sure. My point was that in this case, I think we're looking at bad policy/procedure rather than bad cops.

I still bet that if they had put flashers on that SUV, there would be a minister alive with nothing ruined except a pair of underwear.

I think we're heading to the same place, which is if police don't change these shock and awe policies, people will keep dying.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Another "Drug Task Force" killing -- minister in Georgia.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:27 pm 
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mrokern wrote:


I think we're heading to the same place, which is if police don't change these shock and awe policies, people will keep dying.

-Mark

Yup.

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