Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:28 pm

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Long Ago LEO gets taken down... 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:41 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:43 am
Posts: 208
Location: St. Cloud
At first blush, I was flattered they thought I might be able to outdraw them from my swinging Miami Classic. :lol:

Seriously though, I really do understand the preferred approach (that you experienced at Cub Foods), but for every law-abiding permit holder with a gun that a LEO encounters, a disproportionate number more gun-toting BG's are confronted. Those are not good odds (IMO) for LEO's and I can understand the willingness to possibly piss off a permit holder in the name of officer safety. To me an honest/earnest apology is sufficient. I know that is not a popular opinion on this board and it needn't be. Education will temper these encounters as time goes along, but I just can't discount the LEO mindset when it comes to addressing a person with a gun - even with (our) right to bear them. It may continue to improve, but I'm pretty confident it will never be entirely reconciled.

If these officers had strolled up my sidewalk and commented on my sweet looking gun and asked for ID... that would have been swell. This is normally what happens, although I've never been ID'ed. Case in point. My wife walks to the boat from work three days per week. The pathway is very vulnerable to predators (wooded, difficult to see from outside viewpoints, etc.). I have several vantage points on the river bluffs where I can monitor her crossing through various openings and I monitor her progress while enjoying a stogie on these evenings. (She exercises, I smoke cigars.) On several occasions Mpls PD has come upon me "stalking" this lady and we've engaged in casual conversation about what I'm doing, the type of cigar I'm smoking and even the type of gun/laser and customized holster I'm wearing. But not ONCE have I been asked for identification.

So... I know how it CAN go when not perceived as a possible threat, but I doubt any of these casual visits were the result of someone calling me in for being armed and removing household items from a residence.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:11 pm 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
You guys want to argue some more for awhile, or should I step in and dispense wisdom now and settle it all? (By virtue of my intellect and perception, not my ability to lock down the topic -- I'm vanishingly unlikely to want to do that, and I don't even lock down most discussions I want to. Which aren't many.)

Let me know. I'm actually serious. I'll be serious and full of a margarita in a while.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:17 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:43 am
Posts: 208
Location: St. Cloud
Yikes, Joel. I didn't even recognize I was in an argument. Enjoy your beverage... I'm done.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:30 pm 
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:57 am
Posts: 270
Location: Western Hennepin County
I vote for some Joel wisdom.

I'll wager that if this was a non-LEO, there would be some disorderly conduct charges and maybe even some condescending language towards the permittee.

_________________
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. - Thomas Jefferson


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:53 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 965
Location: North Minneapolis
I think the one point that we do miss on these situations is that, while some of the blame is on the LEO's, I believe most of it is on the dispatchers. They need better training in order to alert the police as to the exact situation. Is the firearm holstered? What is the person with the gun doing? Normal stuff, like mowing the lawn? Does it look like a crime is about to be committed?

I can't help but think that this info, relayed to the officers, would help them make a better choice as to how they respond to someone carrying. Sure, they could still go full draw, pointing guns, felony stop but they might also go with a more measured response.

I think the dispatchers need some training so that obvious permit holders are not grouped in with the criminal man-with-a-gun calls.

_________________
It is about Liberty!

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Chris


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 2362
Location: Uptown Minneapolis
Long Ago LEO wrote:
I am curious however, how you (anyone) would have envisioned this call to have been handled better? Unholstered, but not trained on me? Approached with no offensive display at all? In other words, given the nature of the call and unknowns, what was the teaching moment that could have been gleaned from this (if anyone cared)?


From the squad car, using the loudspeaker.

_________________
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960

"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:19 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
My concern isn't with the officers' response. Depending on how dispatch described this incident (man with gun, removing items from house, local resident reported...etc...), I can understand the response.

More, maybe, later.

Yes, I know I'm channeling Joel. :lol:

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:41 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:57 am
Posts: 818
Location: Apple Valley, MN
Long Ago LEO wrote:
Admittedly, the most senior guy on the scene indicated he thought he recognized me from his days with Champlin PD back in the 80's. Coincidence, because I had no clue who he was.


You were Champlin PD back in the 80s?? Hell I was a pain-in-the-ass kid growing up in Champlin in the 80s.

But back on topic...I'm with Mac on this one. Seems a bit of an overreaction. They had the numbers, they had the angles covered you're out in the front yard, so it's not like you're about to reach under a counter for something and your hands are full of something non-threatening. You're going about your business in a non-disruptive and/or violent manner. Don't see a real urgency to escalate the level of response.

_________________
http://www.eckernet.com
My mind is like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:03 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:44 pm
Posts: 1525
Location: Isanti, MN
joelr wrote:
You guys want to argue some more for awhile, or should I step in and dispense wisdom now and settle it all? (By virtue of my intellect and perception, not my ability to lock down the topic -- I'm vanishingly unlikely to want to do that, and I don't even lock down most discussions I want to. Which aren't many.)

Let me know. I'm actually serious. I'll be serious and full of a margarita in a while.


Not for me....Just to many experience(s) to learn from. There's a lot gain here. Enjoy the margarita! :)

_________________
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”
- Winston Churchill -


WITHOUT LIBERTY THERE IS NO FREEDOM


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:11 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:30 am
Posts: 33
Location: Brooklyn Park
joelr wrote:
You guys want to argue some more for awhile, or should I step in and dispense wisdom now and settle it all?


Argue some more? Hell, this seems like a perfectly rational discussion (unlike some recent topics) and I'm enjoying the read!

_________________
*** My butt is not actually a burrito, nor does it resemble one. Wife still chews it quite a bit.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:59 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
I don't think argument is bad, or necessarily unpleasant, honest.

But, what the heck, let me throw my oar in the water, and start with the moment that LAL's wallet opens, showing his identification. There's a carry permit, and let's assume something that looks very much like LEO ID.

After that, everything goes right. Guns stop being pointed, the guy who had the guns pointed at him gets an apology for the inconvenience, and everybody involved has a pleasant chat and parts in a friendly way, with the guy who had the gun pointed at him sufficiently impressed to write a nice note to the chief.

From that moment on, could it have possibly gone better? Nah.

Now, let's get back to that wallet, showing both those pieces of plastic. There are those who will think that what was really running through the cop's mind was, "Oh, god -- we're pointing guns at a fellow cop when we really oughtn't." (I tend toward that view, myself.)

And that's just fine. Really.

There's also the possibility that what was running through the cop's mind was, "Oh, god -- permit holder. This isn't some armed burglar -- this is the homeowner, and we're pointing guns at a guy on his own property who isn't doing anything wrong, when we really oughtn't."

And that would be fine, too.

We can get into a discussion about what the response to the 911 call should have been, and I'll be glad to join in that, as soon as somebody (somebody else; I'm lazy) gets the 911 transcript. MNDPA request; no big deal. I think what's reasonable for a cop to do depends on a lot of things -- including what information he's given. And, yeah, when they saw a retirement aged guy with a gun in an expensive and kinda stylish shoulder holster (well, it is), I'd strongly have preferred that they think "Hmmm... that don't look like no armed burglar to me, and I really kinda doubt some armed burglar is going to have a gun in a shoulder holster as a decoy, so maybe it's time to be pointing our own guns toward the ground just to be a bit safer..."

But from the moment that the wallet came out, it went well. The thing to encourage -- strongly -- is for the SCPD (and other PDs) to get the notion that "guy with gun" can mean "law-abiding permit holder doing nothing wrong" every bit as easily as "armed robber about to do Bad Stuff," and learn to work out the implications of that.

Now, not having fallen off the turnip truck, I'm more familiar than most folks are with the situation of the college student in Target who got rousted by the SCPD a couple of weeks back. I should be; I'm one of the first folks he called. And I'm, to put it mildly, unimpressed with the SCPD's response in that situation, with their failure to apologize for the (to be gentle) inconvenience, and with their subsequent stonewalling and pigheaded refusal to say something like, "Hey, we didn't handle that at all well, and we'll try to learn and do better next time."

At least arguably, this was among the things that is "next time," and they are doing better. If so, good for them.

If not, there'll be occasions to conduct some education.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:01 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Jeff wrote:
I vote for some Joel wisdom.

I'll wager that if this was a non-LEO, there would be some disorderly conduct charges and maybe even some condescending language towards the permittee.

That easily could be the case -- and SCPD will have more encounters with permit holders. Let's see if they act as well as they did in this instance, or repeat their self-embarrassment in Target the other week.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:48 am 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Twin Cities
Moby, this is not a personal attack. I just get a little tense when I hear the dispatchers need training thing. I'm going to paraphrase quite a bit here to make a point, so please bear with me.

Dispatcher: (generic greeting)

Caller: I just saw a man with a gun carrying stuff out a house down the street!

D: Do you know the address where you saw him?

C: It was just down the street from where I am!

D: And where are you?

C: I don't know exactly where I am. Can't you tell? (insert story of what they saw on CSI/Echelon/24/Walker Texas Ranger here)

D: You're calling from a cell phone (and unless you're calling from your front yard and I happen to have a court order and the carrier's office is in the PD lobby I can't get the address associated with that cell phone unless I get the Sprint/Qwest/Cingular leprechaun who is willing, and has the authority, to take a call back number, verify it and then take the possible privacy smack-down for looking up the address and calling me back.) Do you know what street you're on?

C: I'm on Main St. BUt I saw him a couple of blocks back.

D: So you saw him on Main St?

C: No I told you, I turned onto Main a few blocks ago.

D: what Street did you turn onto Main from?

C: It was an avenue not a street.

D: And what avenue did you turn onto Main from?

C: It was 1st Ave. Do we really have to go through all this? Are you sending the police?

D: Officers are on the way to the area right now. Can you describe the man you saw?

C: No. I didn't get a good look at him.

D: What color was his skin?

C: He was a white guy.

D: How was he built? tall/short/thin/hefty/(this is the part where the dispatcher continues the "interrogation". Where they get a general description of the man/car/house that the caller doesn't remember anything about because they didn't get a "good look" at him/it...Also where they often get to answer questions like, "Why does it matter what race he is?" or "Aren't you listening to me? I told you it was a blue Ford truck."



I hope you get the idea here. It's not that dispatchers don't ask questions about the person/vehicle/situation...It's that people are, in general, lousy at relating what they've seen. Ask any lawyer if they'd rather have a video tape/photo/satellite images or a "reliable" witness account of something. We won't even get into the people who inflate the importance or outright danger of what they've seen. (ok, yes we will) Like the man with a gun in a parking lot who became some guy waving a machine gun around in the street. So there's probably little chance that LALeo became a psychopathic hit man drawing down on the neighbors to eliminate the witnesses.

I'm not saying that happened. What's more likely, in my mind, is that the dispatcher got little info from the caller and they made the best judgment they could with available manpower to make sure that they handled the call as safely as possible. I know of one metro agency that rolled every officer from the Chief on down to a call of teenagers with guns under the bridge shooting the homeless. That turned out to be kids with paintball guns shooting at nothing and no one in particular.

Hell I was involved in a man with a gun call at a Wal-Mart. Three cops with guns drawn and pointed at the floor stating firmly that I should put my hands in the air and turn to face the wall. Only they weren't talking to me...They were talking to the Anoka Deputy behind me in line at the pharmacy. I was not treated any differently than LALeo. I didn't even show up in the incidence report. I called and talked to the duty sargeant and was told that I was not the reason for the call so the officers decided that there was no reason to include my info since my permit was valid.

I guess my point is that if the caller didn't give SCPD lots of info they were better off sending everything they had and treating it like an active shooter scene. I'd love to see the 911 transcripts for LALeo's call and the one Joel mentioned. Just to see if my opinions are justified. No, I'm not a 911 dispatcher and yes, I'm a little defensive when I see the "We need to train the dispatchers," line. I'm married to a 911 dispatcher and I know how much training she went through (and continues to go through) and how vigorously they screen before they get the chance for the training. Maybe the problem is more widespread than the dispatchers. Maybe we need to get people to worry about more than the 3 feet around them. Maybe we need to work on the justice system so that witnesses don't worry about the hassles of reporting an alleged crime so much that they want to just call and say drunk driver and hang up. Maybe we need to go deeper and educate people enough that they can separate what they watch on CSI from how the real world operates.

I'm not a fan of over-authoritative cops any more than Andrew is (ask me about my opinion of the folks from Lino Lakes or St. Anthony) but this doesn't seem like a horror story. Who knows, maybe Joel's right and SCPD got taken to task for the Target incident and the force was told to back the hell off if there were no laws broken.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:21 pm 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Prushin: yup. Scared, untrained people are very unlikely to give out good information easily. And directions? There are people who, even when not under stress, can't find north or west without a compass -- I'm one of them. If I'm out in the woods and can tell the dispatcher exactly where I am (no chance), being able to say, "... and he's sixty yards to the northwest of me moving west north west" are zero.

That's why the role of the 911 operators and dispatchers in this sort of thing is important -- it's not just a message service. These folks need to have the skills and talent to get good information out of untrained, scared people, draw some reasonable conclusions and do their best to get the best information out to the cops who are rolling in.

That lowers the chances of bad stuff happening because of inadequate communication.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long Ago LEO gets taken down...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:35 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 965
Location: North Minneapolis
Yes to both Joel and prushin. Thanks to Joel for making my point a little clearer. Dispatcher need to be well trained to get good info from bad callers. In every situation. Man with a gun or lady waving at cars could both turn deadly, but what info the officers get can make a huge impact on how they approach the situation.

I would hate to lambast the officers unnecessarily if all dispatch got was man with a gun during a 45 second conversation. YMMV.

_________________
It is about Liberty!

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Chris


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group