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 A glimmer of hope... 
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 Post subject: A glimmer of hope...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:12 am 
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Over the holidays we gathered with family and friends, many of whom are current or former LEO's. One friend (I consider her a kid-sister, since she rented a room during school and I was one of her mentors during her early LEO days) is currently on maternity leave from Mn State Patrol. While seeing the new baby, I got into a long discussion with her husband who is in the midst of a career change and embarking on year two of his criminal justice degree at Brainerd and hopes to catch on with the State some day, as well.

We were doing the show & tell (guns) segment of these gatherings when the subject of carry permits came up. I was flat-out astounded by the GREAT insight this new cop-in-training is receiving up in Brainerd. You would have thought he was Kimberman or Andrew or Joel talking.

I assumed the traditional LEO role when discussing police/civilian encounters involving permit holders. We did traffic stops, restaurant stops, mall stops, etc. For each twist and turn, he kept insisting that I had no right to be asking certain things, yet seemed cognizant of officer safety issues. He explained that they had spent a LOT of time discussing these issues in school with respect to carry permits and his professor(s) kept drilling into them that things are different now and "officer safety" has become a transparent shield they cannot necessarily hide behind any more. Be safe, but be smart.

I can't remember the entire dialogue, mostly because I was still pleasantly surprised. I found it encouraging that some of the next generation of LEO's are getting much needed training about how to handle the rest of the (legally) gun-toting society.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:15 am 
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Thank you for sharing. That is great to hear. :D

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 Post subject: Re: A glimmer of hope...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:35 am 
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Long Ago LEO wrote:
Over the holidays we gathered with family and friends, many of whom are current or former LEO's. One friend (I consider her a kid-sister, since she rented a room during school and I was one of her mentors during her early LEO days) is currently on maternity leave from Mn State Patrol. While seeing the new baby, I got into a long discussion with her husband who is in the midst of a career change and embarking on year two of his criminal justice degree at Brainerd and hopes to catch on with the State some day, as well.

We were doing the show & tell (guns) segment of these gatherings when the subject of carry permits came up. I was flat-out astounded by the GREAT insight this new cop-in-training is receiving up in Brainerd. You would have thought he was Kimberman or Andrew or Joel talking.

I assumed the traditional LEO role when discussing police/civilian encounters involving permit holders. We did traffic stops, restaurant stops, mall stops, etc. For each twist and turn, he kept insisting that I had no right to be asking certain things, yet seemed cognizant of officer safety issues. He explained that they had spent a LOT of time discussing these issues in school with respect to carry permits and his professor(s) kept drilling into them that things are different now and "officer safety" has become a transparent shield they cannot necessarily hide behind any more. Be safe, but be smart.

I can't remember the entire dialogue, mostly because I was still pleasantly surprised. I found it encouraging that some of the next generation of LEO's are getting much needed training about how to handle the rest of the (legally) gun-toting society.
:)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:38 am 
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Wow. This seems to be the opposite story (and presumable the same school) from what we heard (secondhand) from Tick Slayer's husband, here: http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... php?t=9244

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:57 pm 
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I did follow the Tick Slayer thread about the spouse's attitudes, schooling, etc. It does beg some questions. I'm guessing there are some predispositions in play here; probably on both sides.

My kid-sister was a deputy first and caught on with MSP over 8-years ago and her husband is similar in age. So, he's on the upper end of the desirable age group, but it probably affords him some maturity and insight likely not at the disposable of all new cop recruits. Hope it rubs off on his peers.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Where does the Minnesota training take place?

I know cops who took basic law enforcement training at Alexandria VoTech. I assume POST is a differant program, and I think the Sate Patrol has their own?

Probably there is a different culture, depending on the school/program.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Ah, then I was probably mistaken in ASSuming it was the same school. :oops:

I wish Kid Sister's teachers would wise up Mr. Tick Slayer's teachers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:41 pm 
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A more current LEO or recruit can speak to this better than me, but there are a couple different training issues here. There is the college degree aspect (programs all over the state), the skills training (similar to the old police academy; i.e., Police Technical Institute (PTI), etc., but on your own dime and fewer choices statewide) and then once both of these are in your back pocket, you are eligible to take the POST test and upon successful completion, go look for a job. If picked up by the State Patrol, you get to enjoy their 12-week boot camp (might even be 16-weeks now and I may be confusing that number with the Illinois State Police). In any event, you have to hope permit discussions will begin to permeate all levels of training, especially in the wake of the recent SCOTUS opinion on 2A.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:43 am 
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In MN, there are several different technical colleges that offer two- year degrees. The two most prominent are in Alexandria & Hibbing. Students from these two colleges are POST (Peace Officer Standards & Training)license eligible upon graduation.

There are others that also offer the two-year program. Graduates of these schools need to then complete the "skills" portion which is 10 weeks (I think. It was 8 when I went through it). It IS on your own dime.

There are several MN universities that offer a BS in Criminal Justice. Those graduates also need to "go to skills" before they are eligible to take the POST exam.

MN State Patrol, MN DNR, and St. Paul PD all have their own academies, but I believe entrants already have to be POST licensed, or at least eligible to be licensed. If you're at one of those places, you are an employee, and are being paid to attend.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:22 pm 
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10-4; paid to attend - not paid to enjoy it. :D

Kid-sister blew out a knee in about the final 3 or 4 weeks up at Ripley; had to have full reconstructive surgery and work dispatch until she rehabilitated. She then had to take the entire 12 (or 16) weeks over. They cut her some slack on round two and had her mentoring a larger than normal female recruiting class that year, but they still made her go through the whole gig again. She's earned her stripes (then and since).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Good to hear that training is being done to provide information and what is appropriate when interacting with a permit holder. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:51 am 
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A couple of cops have told me that the "officer safety" is something thaey have to be aware of regardless of permits, and the permit law is usefuil because they can always arrest the bad guys for NOT having a permit. So, us having permits does not really affect them.

But they'll also tell you they are trained on how to describe any stop as "legal". The "reasonable suspicion" required is just a law they are trained to "get around". So, they stop on a whim or a hunch, and then "make up the reason" later.

That's the part of training I hate. I wonder if it's everywhere, or just at some schools. I have the feeling that Alexandria and POST teach more of the negative stuff, but I really don't know. But some of the LEO trainers need feedback they would not like.


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