Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 am

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
 Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:53 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
DeanC wrote:
Paper plates are a bad idea at an indoor range because your POA is too close to the target hanger.

Shoot long enough and you will hit the target hanger and you will be embarrassed when you have to explain to the range staff that you broke their stuff because you are a cheap bastard.

Hopefully that is as bad as it gets and you don't get a ricochet that hurts someone.

I don't use targets printed on 8½ x 11" paper at indoor ranges for the same reason.

Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:22 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:40 am
Posts: 1204
Location: Golden Valley, MN
The best place to get targets locally is LE Targets, this is where Bill's gets their targets adn they have no minimum order.

www.letargets.com

they are up in circle pines, you can order and pick up at their will call.

_________________
MN DNR Certified FAS Instructor
NRA Pistol, PPITH, and PPOTH Certified Instructor
IFIA MCPPA Certified Instructor

"For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
-Unknown

Honorably Discharged member of Uncle Sam's Underwater Canoe Club.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:32 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
joelr wrote:
Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.


That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:34 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
jac714 wrote:
The best place to get targets locally is LE Targets, this is where Bill's gets their targets adn they have no minimum order.

www.letargets.com

they are up in circle pines, you can order and pick up at their will call.
I think so. If there's a better place locally, I'd love to hear about it, because they're great to deal with. Bought lots of targets and dummy rounds from them, over the years.

And there's days when it seems to work for me.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:35 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
DeanC wrote:
joelr wrote:
Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.


That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach.

Sure. But, in that situation, just substitute a sheet of newspaper or a big shot-up target or whatever.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:49 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 6767
Location: Twin Cities
jdege wrote:
joelr wrote:
Under MN, law, of course, the container must simple be "closed and fastened," and not a purse.


624.714 says "contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, or securely tied package"

97B.045 is more explicit: "in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, and the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and without any portion of the firearm exposed"

In this case, the court says that since the 624.714 doesn't define the terms, the district court was quite proper in looking to 97B.045 for a definition.

For a definition of "unloaded," not "cased."
Quote:
But this case says that a holster is a proper case within the meaning of 624.714.

In my mind, the typical holster would not meet the standards of 97B.045, so the two decisions are contradictory. The only conclusion I can draw is to be careful about how fine a point you draw, when you're trying to draw logical conclusions about the law.


They are not contradictory. The first looked to 97B.045 for a definition of "unloaded," since 624.714 didn't have one.

The second case used a VERY loose interpretation of "cased" from 624.714.

It's black letter law that in the case of a contradiction between criminal code and hunting laws, criminal code wins.

Quote:
97A.021 CONSTRUCTION.
Subdivision 1.Code of Criminal Procedure.

A provision of the game and fish laws that is inconsistent with the Code of Criminal Procedure or of penal law is only effective under the game and fish laws.

_________________
* NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:05 am 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:25 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Forest Lake, MN
I usually print off a bunch of targets from this site:

http://www.mytargets.com/

If you google "printable targets", you'll get a bunch. With the large cardboard hanging up at the range, I can usually fit 4 targets on there with the range-supplied staple guns (be sure to ask for some spare staples prior to entering the range as I usually find the staplers empty or near-empty).

Many have already addressed the basic rules for shooting safely at the range in this thread. One thing I would add is that it is a good idea to keep the action open on your firearm and muzzle pointed at the floor if you must bring it from the shooting rest to the rear benchtop (like if you bring multiple guns with you and you are switching up). Better yet, bring the case to the shooting rest to case/uncase the firearm. Any firearm left on the rear bench should be in it's respective case, unloaded, and out of sight. Only load your firearm at the shooting rest and keep the muzzle downrange at all times.

_________________
Pork Chop Sandwiches!


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:20 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
DeanC wrote:
joelr wrote:
Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.


That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach.


I've never once had that issue at BPR, only at Bill's (where it's a CONSTANT pain in the ass).

At BPR, I give the clamp a good solid tug closed until I feel the teeth punch into the cardboard. At that point, short of a grenade, it isn't coming loose.

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:35 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:23 pm
Posts: 1419
Location: SE MPLS
Andrew Rothman wrote:
jdege wrote:
In my mind, the typical holster would not meet the standards of 97B.045, so the two decisions are contradictory. The only conclusion I can draw is to be careful about how fine a point you draw, when you're trying to draw logical conclusions about the law.


They are not contradictory. The first looked to 97B.045 for a definition of "unloaded," since 624.714 didn't have one.

The second case used a VERY loose interpretation of "cased" from 624.714.

It's black letter law that in the case of a contradiction between criminal code and hunting laws, criminal code wins.

I'm not going to argue you on specifics, but I will continue to maintain that it's unwise to do too much experimenting around the margins. If the law says "cased", get a real case, that is clearly and incontrovertibly a case. You may eventually win on whether your purse or your holster is a case, but your life won't be better if you do.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:17 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm
Posts: 471
Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
Or get the permit.

Some -- many -- cops like to bust people for technical violations of gun laws. It is seen, in some -- many -- agencies as an effective means to prevent violence before it starts, and as a starting point for further investigation (like searching the vehicle or running the serial number of the gun). There are lots of ways a gun can come up stolen on NCIC even if you are the lawful owner. Or a thorough cop might find drugs hidden in the car by its former owner or you kid or ex. Or they might decide that you match the vague description of someone who committed a crime with a similar weapon.

The fact that your range bag isn't a purse might get you off at trial but it's probably not enough to get other evidence excluded, if their fishing expedition turns something up, and as we're fond of saying here, you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.

Not an area where I would choose to push it. I think that, for relative newcomers to firearms who don't have a carry permit, the wisest advice would be to keep a low profile and stay well within the boundaries. That would be cased, unloaded, and ideally in the trunk or the rear of the car.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:10 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
Image

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:16 am 
Member

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 46
IANAL but my understanding is that FOPA creates a 'floor' by setting conditions that nothing can be more restrictive than.

Just because FOPA exists doesn't stop a state from having their own laws that are much less restrictive...which is the case in MN.

In theory, if a state had ZERO gun laws regarding transport of a firearm, then the FOPA still exists as a floor, and you could do anything you want as far as transport, such has having a loaded gun stuck in one of those cases that attack to your sun visor intended for holding CDs


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:47 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:36 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Apple Valley, MN
joelr wrote:
DeanC wrote:
Paper plates are a bad idea at an indoor range because your POA is too close to the target hanger.

Shoot long enough and you will hit the target hanger and you will be embarrassed when you have to explain to the range staff that you broke their stuff because you are a cheap bastard.

Hopefully that is as bad as it gets and you don't get a ricochet that hurts someone.

I don't use targets printed on 8½ x 11" paper at indoor ranges for the same reason.

Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.


That's what I do whenever I go to an indoor range. I've never purchased a target in my life- I always use the 100yd rifle targets from Surplusrifleforum.com. Firearms, ammo and range fees are expensive enough as they are, why make it more expensive and start buying targets?


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group