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 Glock grip angle theory 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:51 am 
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I'm talking about we all put 200 rounds apiece through each gun, and they just weren't shooting right (the guns, not the shooters). .[/quote]




When you say they weren't shooting"right", what do you mean? Were they malfunctioning? Were they not grouping? Were they literally not shooting point of aim and hitting left? Or low left? (Which is actually quite common when someone not familiar with Glocks first tries them out)

Glocks are not for everybody. But then neither are Sigs, XDs, 1911s, etc. It's great to live in a country where we can choose which handgun fits us best.

If you don't mind my asking, I am curious as to how big your department is and how many officers were involved in this trial?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:03 am 
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keith wrote:
I'm talking about we all put 200 rounds apiece through each gun, and they just weren't shooting right (the guns, not the shooters). .




Quote:
When you say they weren't shooting"right", what do you mean? Were they malfunctioning? Were they not grouping? Were they literally not shooting point of aim and hitting left? Or low left? (Which is actually quite common when someone not familiar with Glocks first tries them out)

Glocks are not for everybody. But then neither are Sigs, XDs, 1911s, etc. It's great to live in a country where we can choose which handgun fits us best.

If you don't mind my asking, I am curious as to how big your department is and how many officers were involved in this trial?


12 officers.

Maybe I should qualify that 'not shooting right' part. What I mean is: not one of us (including some very experienced shooters) could get a consistent, natural sight picture leading to an acceptable grouping on POA using the Glock 22 or 35. All had persistent low or high (from the point of aim) groupings. Thus, I don't believe the sights were to blame, but probably the ergonomics together with the different sized hands of the shooters. I would say that given enough time, this could probably be compensated for and overcome, but compared to our duty weapons and the XDs which we found shot naturally to the point of aim upon presentation from the holster it was disappointing to say the least, given all the hype about Glocks being the ultimate LE handgun.

If Glocks work for other people, thats fine, I have only my own limited experience and example to work with, but they have not (so far) impressed me or the people I work with.

This is why I wonder if it's actually Glocks marketing to LE that is the reason for their pistols' popularity knowing the 'bottom line' mentality of most Departments; rather than the outright 'best tool for the job' quality of the product.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:53 am 
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Or there's always this alternative.
http://www.ccfraceframes.com/

They won't be out till June, or so they say, but this company is making aluminum, titanium, and stainless steel Glock frames.

With the option of adding the 1911 grip angle insert it might make it easier for some to transition to. I just may have to get one to T&E.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:03 pm 
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Widge wrote:
Maybe I should qualify that 'not shooting right' part. What I mean is: not one of us (including some very experienced shooters) could get a consistent, natural sight picture leading to an acceptable grouping on POA using the Glock 22 or 35. All had persistent low or high (from the point of aim) groupings. Thus, I don't believe the sights were to blame, but probably the ergonomics together with the different sized hands of the shooters.


I hate to break it to you, but it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

I've seen great 1911 shooters that hate, nay, despise the Glock platform shoot Glocks. They still shoot great.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 pm 
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goalie wrote:
Widge wrote:
Maybe I should qualify that 'not shooting right' part. What I mean is: not one of us (including some very experienced shooters) could get a consistent, natural sight picture leading to an acceptable grouping on POA using the Glock 22 or 35. All had persistent low or high (from the point of aim) groupings. Thus, I don't believe the sights were to blame, but probably the ergonomics together with the different sized hands of the shooters.


I hate to break it to you, but it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

I've seen great 1911 shooters that hate, nay, despise the Glock platform shoot Glocks. They still shoot great.


I wondered how long the great 'if your good, it doesn't matter what gun you shoot' answer would take. True, as far as it goes, which normally means someone who shoots (and has time to shoot) many, many more rounds than most people and/or is just a natural with a gun. Most Cops (and other shooters) are not that gifted which means they have to practise, a lot.
Which leads on to my original point (and of this thread) - the ergos of Glocks just don't seem to suit people who otherwise shoot well. So why are they so popular? they are that good? or is it more that they are cheap (given the deals offered by Glock) to equip a whole department compared to other manufacturers? I know where my vote lands.

Like I said earlier, some people love Glocks, shoot them superbly and that's fine and dandy, but the (unrepresentative) sample that we tried, didn't...YMMV

Anyway it's fine, we all suck...despite that we'll happily continue to shoot our Sigs and clean the clocks of every other dept in SD (who shoot everything from Glocks and Rugers to Kimbers and high end 1911s) in the shooting comps.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Widge wrote:
I wondered how long the great 'if your good, it doesn't matter what gun you shoot' answer would take. True, as far as it goes, which normally means someone who shoots (and has time to shoot) many, many more rounds than most people and/or is just a natural with a gun. Most Cops (and other shooters) are not that gifted which means they have to practise, a lot.
Which leads on to my original point (and of this thread) - the ergos of Glocks just don't seem to suit people who otherwise shoot well. So why are they so popular? they are that good? or is it more that they are cheap (given the deals offered by Glock) to equip a whole department compared to other manufacturers? I know where my vote lands.

Like I said earlier, some people love Glocks, shoot them superbly and that's fine and dandy, but the (unrepresentative) sample that we tried, didn't...YMMV

Anyway it's fine, we all suck...despite that we'll happily continue to shoot our Sigs and clean the clocks of every other dept in SD (who shoot everything from Glocks and Rugers to Kimbers and high end 1911s) in the shooting comps.


If a gun fits your hand, you'll shoot it great right away. If it doesn't, and you have good technique, you'll shoot it well or OK. The fact is that Glocks are capable of shooting just fine. People have won major shooting sports titles with them, and, unlike other models of handguns, they have done it almost bone-stock as well.

I personally dislike the 1911 platform for a handgun. I dislike the grip-angle, I dislike the weight-to-capacity ratio it provides, and I dislike the manual-or-arms that they have, but, if I shoot one poorly I am not going to blame the handgun, as the 1911 pattern handgun is capable of quite satisfactory (understatement) accuracy.

As for why so many Glocks are out there, well, they are cheap, reliable, accurate and easy to work on yourself. The trigger-pull is light (too light for many beginning shooters IMO) and the same for every shot. They are much less expensive to produce than handguns of comparable reliability, and can be offered to police departments in bulk for much less than most comparable service weapons.

Then again, (my opinion again) they are not the best weapons for beginners due to the need for impeccable trigger-finger discipline, and they do have a major flaw in that they require one to pull the trigger in order to dissasemble and clean the weapon. That design feature (flaw) has resulted in a whole lotta NDs.

That all said, the fact that your sample had people shooting BOTH high and low with the same grip angle leads me to the conclusion that the angle itself is not such to cause anyone to shoot particularly high or low, although most 1911 shooters I know point-shoot high with them.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Widge wrote:
Which leads on to my original point (and of this thread) - the ergos of Glocks just don't seem to suit people who otherwise shoot well.


This guy wants to disagree with you:

http://www.sevignyperformance.com/main.htm


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:58 am 
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The only other opinion I have one this (and everything posted here is pretty much opinion) relating to the Guns and Ammo article I posted earlier in the thread is this:

If you have been shooting traditional style grip angle guns like the 1911 and the XD's and the S&W, etc. you can still shoot great witha Glock. The whole point is that over time your body retains muscle memory for shooting positions. If you start out shooting Glocks they are going to have a more natural POA, if you start out on something else you are going to have natural POA for that style. That doesn't mean you can't adapt to a new grip angle. I switch back and fourth between Glocks, Walthers, Sigs, XD's all the time so I find myself adjusting for the new guns all the time. You can adjust you wrist angle and shoot a Glock just fine and if you shoot a Glock all the time you will develope muscle memory for the Glock grip angle.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:12 am 
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Shooting high or low is not a matter of the gun - grip or anything other than sight alignment - there is no one perfect tool that is going to come up perfectly - that is where training and fine muscle control come in - you cant just shoot a handgun for a couple of hours and expect to have it perform to your expectations and just naturally go into auto aim mode.

This is a matter of training and time spent with the gun. A glock is a fine tool - as Goalie says - it is a soul-less as a brick but as reliable as a hammer whereas a sig is a more elegant firearm in a lot of ways - but the truth of the matter is that some of the evaulations done by departments and individual officers fall short of the time really needed to determine if a gun is right for you.

I actually hate Glocks - but I own a bunch of them - Goalie and Rothman will attest to their capabilities - but keep in mind that I have been shooting the same gun for 14 years now..... (same bone stock 17) This particular 17 shoots a whole lot better than I can and I am still learning what it can really do everytime that I shoot it.

So - you cannot rush to judgement about a guns natural ability to point - how about adapting your arm and hand and perhaps a little technique to assist in letting the gun do its job?

Sight alignment is how you place shots - not point shooting - not shooting from the hip at 15 yards - SIGHT ALIGNMENT. Grip angle is a state of mind - training and time spent is the true measure of a firearm. Dont blame the grip angle on where the gun shoots - that is redhiculous.

Here is the other true measure - there is no one gun solution - people are not constructed similarly - A major PD in the Northeast used to issue SW 4506's to ALL officers - even ones with small hands - I offer this - you are a small person - with small hands - you cannot reach the controls at all - you cant control the firearm adequately under stress - the gun becomes a marginal club.....

You can take th best STI Infinity - Les BAer - Glock 34 - Todd JArret Special or whatever - point shoot it and they will all shoot the same - use the sights and proper shooting technique regardless of grip angle - thats where the gun will perform.


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