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It May Be Time
http://ellegon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=644		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  gunflint [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  It May Be Time
I started with handguns when I got my permit in march of 04. I've owned long guns since childhood. My current carry gun is the first sidearm I ever owned. It'a .41 magnum Taurus revolver in titanium. I like the gun and am comfortable carrying it.

But lately I'm having thoughts of trading it in for a 10mm semi auto. Is this a smart move? Or is my mind telling me to start shopping for a gun, It's like an addiction.

I believe that the 10mm will handel most situations that the .41 does, and carries alot more ammo. Who makes a good 10mm? Thanks
Author:  squib_joe [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: It May Be Time
gunflint wrote:
Who makes a good 10mm?


- Glock

- EAA / Witness

- Kimber (1911 style)

- Glock again
Author:  lastgunshop [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: It May Be Time
gunflint wrote:

I believe that the 10mm will handel most situations that the .41 does, and carries alot more ammo. Who makes a good 10mm? Thanks
My pick would be Glock then EAA/Witness. Not a Kimber there workmenship in the past 10 months have been S*$T. There customer sevice is as bad too.
Author:  gunflint [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Roughly, what does a new Glock 10mm go for? Are there any reloading issues with them? Thanks
Author:  Srigs [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
A good 10mm is S&W 10xx models!
Author:  lastgunshop [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
gunflint wrote:
Roughly, what does a new Glock 10mm go for? Are there any reloading issues with them? Thanks
First I wouldn't shoot reloads in any of my firearms. All makers of firearms will tell you in the book not to shoot reloads. We get about 5 guns a year in the shop were they blewup. Not good when its a GoldCup or H&K....Cost of a 10MM about $ 529.00 on up.
Author:  BigRobT [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Having an EAA 10mm, I'm pretty happy with it. Accuracy is good, right out of the box. I WOULD suggest that you consoider a 45 ACP or a 40 S&W model. The reason being is 10MM is one of those bastard step-children and ammo is getting a little more expensive. However, if you are set on a 10MM, I would let you shoot my EAA at the next shoot after the 28th. Glocks seem to be the gun of choice, but they don't fit my big paws as well as other manufacturers. The EAA full size is a double stack mag and one can easily modify the factory mags (10+1)to accomodate 14+1
Author:  gunflint [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've got some homework to do. I like the 10mm for the knock down power. I usually draw my weapon several times per year on problem bears and had to shoot one this spring. That's why I went with the .41.

lastgunshop, does the reloading issue have to do with semi's or are you against it in general? I've run at least 700 rounds of reloads through the .41 without a problem. Although I use factory loads when carrying.

Believe me I know what you guys are talking about when it comes to redheaded stepchild calibers. The .41 mag isn't exactly the most common round out there. That's why I got into reloading.
Author:  Steelheart [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you are considering a 1911, look around for a Series I (current production is Series II) but I'll admit that I don't know if Kimber made a 10mm back then. I wouldn't trust the newer ones.

Dan Wesson also made a 10mm recently but I don't have any ideas on price. Either 1911 will cost more than a Glock 20 or 29 (smaller sized 10mm).

Steelheart
Author:  lastgunshop [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
gunflint wrote:
lastgunshop, does the reloading issue have to do with semi's or are you against it in general? I've run at least 700 rounds of reloads through the .41 without a problem. Although I use factory loads when carrying.

Im generaly againt any reloads Rev. or Semi's
Author:  gunthorp [ Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
All manufacturers are going to forbid reloads because their lawyers and insurance agents are whispering into their ears. Blown up guns are not the reload's fault, but the reloader's. I recommend casting and reloading for those with less popular calibers, a desire to be self sufficient, the ability to carefully follow instructions in the manuals, the need for extreme accuracy or flexibility, and the money to buy more guns instead of ammo. The penetration of a heavy hard cast lead bullet in the woods, the expansion of a heavy hollow point on the streets, and lots of prudent practice loads can be the benefits. As far as the .41 Mag goes, think carefully about giving it away, unless you're upgrading your power level. The 10mm doesn't even come close to the bone smashing power of Federal Premium 250 grain cast cores out of the 4" .41 Mag. Some feel, like the FBI, that the 10mm is too much for the street. For the bears, moose, and cougars that you face daily, do you want to rely on shot placement entirely? However, if you are looking for a piece to carry to town, you might consider adding a gun for that purpose, an auto with more capacity, one that pushes a heavy hollow point, one that uses low pressure so it's fun to shoot, easy on the ears, and effective. Consider the .45 ACP.
Author:  goalie [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:02 am ]
Post subject: 
lastgunshop wrote:
gunflint wrote:
Roughly, what does a new Glock 10mm go for? Are there any reloading issues with them? Thanks
First I wouldn't shoot reloads in any of my firearms. All makers of firearms will tell you in the book not to shoot reloads. We get about 5 guns a year in the shop were they blewup. Not good when its a GoldCup or H&K....Cost of a 10MM about $ 529.00 on up.


FWIW, I have a G17 with somewhere over 10,000 rounds of reloaded ammunition through it. Shoot jacketed bellets (through the Glock) and be careful loading. Don't use any powder that is not bulky enough to overflow the case if you double-charge.
Author:  gunflint [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:18 am ]
Post subject: 
gunthorp,

Of course you'd say that, I bought it from you. :D Welcome to the forum. I've done alot of thinking about it and I believe I'll stick with what I've got. My other addiction (fishing) burns up the majority of my discretionary funds, so a second handgun, unless it's an extremely good deal, is out.

The .41 is a perfect compromise between 2 legged and 4 legged threats. I do carry with the 250 grains in the summer (I shot a bear with it last spring) and on the rare occasion that I do go to big city (Duluth) I switch over to 215 grain hollow points.

The only disadvantages I feel I have are, I only have 5 rounds and, concealment. I saw a picture taken of me crouching and I could clearly see the print. On the flip side. I don't believe that it's very likely that I'll be caught in a running gun battle and if I need more rounds for a large animal my long guns are a few minutes away. As far as the printing is concerned. I have been carrying every day since I took your class and got my permit and no one as noticed it. I carry where we have alot of (city folk) visiting and they would say something if they noticed.
Author:  gunthorp [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, Gunflint. I suspected so by your avatar. I can't think of a better arm for your situation than the powerful, lightweight, titanium tracker. I'm very glad it proved effective in your capable hands, due in great part to your reloading skill. I can't think of better stress inducing drills than actual bear encounters :) I'd want you on my side in a pinch. As far as 5 rds go, NYPD stats over the last 100 yrs or so indicate an avg 2.6 rds per incident. Point shooting was almost always reverted to. So even if the point of impact changes with the 215 HP's, keep the sights on for the 250's. In a running gun battle, you'll find me running for cover :o Happy New Year, and may it be prosperous enough for both fishing and urban carry.
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
As far as 5 rds go, NYPD stats over the last 100 yrs or so indicate an avg 2.6 rds per incident.


the NYPD stats, called SOP9, were established in 1969.

(http://www.pointshooting.com/sop9.htm)
Quote:
In 1969, the Firearms and Tactics Section of the New York City Police Department instituted a procedure for the in-depth documentation and study of police combat situations. It was designated Department Order SOP 9 (s. 69).


The 2.6 number was a result of sloppy analysis, as John Farnam writes:

(quoted at http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Farnam/NYPD.htm)

Quote:
SOP-9, as it is called, is NYPD's ongoing statistical study of lethal-force incidents....

For years, we were all told SOP-9 established the "average" number of rounds fired by an MOS during a lethal encounter was two to three. We later learned that figure was incorrect and was actually the result of sloppy statistical analysis. Naive statisticians simply took the total of all rounds fired outside of the firing range and divided it by the total number of shooting "incidents." Unhappily, "incidents" included accidents and suicides!

A more careful analysis of the data (which included only intentional shootings) revealed the actual figure to be very close to six rounds. What that said to us all was that officers, when threatened with lethal violence, were firing every round they had in their six-shot revolvers. After six shots, there was a mandatory pause for a conventional reload or a "NY reload," which consisted of producing a second revolver! After the reload, additional shooting was rarely necessary.

That was prior to 1994. In 1994 autoloading pistols were introduced to the NYPD system.

When autoloaders (mostly Glocks, with an occasional S&W and Beretta) came into the NYPD system, we all expected that figure (six) to go up into the teens, fully expecting officers to continue to fire every round they have. The latest data has shown our expectations to be incorrect!

The new "average" number of rounds fired is eight.
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