First off, my wife in not into guns like me. She doesn't understand the need for concealed carry, except when I'm escorting her down Frenchman street in the Quarter at midnight wile we're visiting our daughter.

At any rate, she wants this electronic book with a cellphone built in (and this isn't just a wifi connection, it's a cellphone) so she can download books anywhere and read them while we're abroad or on our boat. So she asks me what I want for Christmas, and I consider the unthinkable, which is asking for a gun, and I actually tell her this. (Yes, I'm an idiot...) Much to my surprise, she says okay, and where do I buy it? I then have to explain straw purchases to her, plus the fact that you need a permit (or MN CCW license) to buy a handgun. (We got it at the Gunstop, naturally...)

Long story short, I am getting an EAA Stock in 10mm for Christmas!! It's up under the tree, and all I want for Christmas is dead kittens (with mittens)!!!

Pictures after Christmas...

BTW - My ultimate plans for this thing is to mutate it into a 9x25 Dillon if I can get a 38 Super barrel for it. The EAA people said they're the same external dimensions, so it should be a drop-in fit. Now I just have to find a machinist with a 9x25 reamer.

Cool, and which we already know, a very merry Christmas to you.

I may be wrong, not the first time, but your wife can buy you a handgun as a gift, that's not considered a straw purchase unless you are prohibited from owning such handgun.

cobb wrote:



No, for some of us it would be a miracle.

Merry Christmas and enjoy.

One question. Why would someone with a .50 cal want to go back down to a 9 mm?

Either as a 10mm or 9 x 25, this would never have been my next carry gun. (Actually, my original carry gun was an EAA Witness in 10mm, but you can't get lasergrips for it and your average perp wouldn't know whether it's a 9mm, 10mm, 40, or anything else.

As far as getting another 9mm, a 9 x 25 Dillon will put a bullet out the barrel at 1800 FPS. If you're a handloader, that's just plain fun, and it will give me a good excuse to play with my chrono.

You do know I regularly shoot a Smith 500 for exercise, don't you??

And BTW, just because you went to all the trouble of jerking my chain about as being as old, broken down, and crusty as HammAR....

[Action]

Seismic Sam grabs a handful of fresh balsam pine needles, sprinkles them down the back of Cobb's pants, and then gives him a HUGE Christmas wedgie!!! The air is delighfully scented, which is a first for the backside of Cobb's jeans...

[/Action]

Very cool.

Would you mind talking/writing a bit about the virtues of the 9x25 Dillon? ("I like things that make big bangs," is, of course, a perfectly legitimate virtue; I'm wondering if you've got any other reasons you'd be willing to share.)

There are folks what like recoil and folks what don't. Me, I'm in the latter category; I take my one of .44 Magnums out and practice with full-house loads every now and then, on the grounds that I do carry one, from time to time. But it's no fun for me at all, and if I could find somebody who wanted to buy the Flare Gun off me for a good enough price, I'd probably end up parting with it to fund the P7M8 that is, to my mind, just about the perfect carry auto.

Unfortunately, since I have only read about the 9 x 25 Dillon, I'm not sure anything I will say won't be a repeat of what I've read, but here goes.

The original purpose on thr 9 x 25 Dillon was to allow IPSC shooters to compete at the Major power level without doing totally insane things with 9x23 cases in 38 Super barrels, like running the rounds at 55,000 PSI. Oddly enough, there is a post over on mnguntalk about regular versus magnum primers where somebody admits to shooting 38 super rounds where the primers FELL OUT of the case when it was ejected. (I also get very indignant over some stuff, but that's another story.)

So: Take a 10mm case, neck it down to 9mm, and you have a way to get a 9mm bullet screaming along fast enough to make Major power level without doing insane handloading shit to accomplish it. The fact that the round has gained favor with the IPSC community is an indication that it works, and is NOT high recoil, because that's why they do it.

Bottle necked pistol cartridges do feed quite well, and in that area I can speak with some authority, because I do have a 440 Corbon Magnum barrel for my DE. That's a 50AE case necked down to 44 caliber, and it will put a 240 grain 44 mag bullet out a 6" barrel at 1600 FPS. (That's about 1700 ft-lbs, and the recoil is less than the 50AE, but you hve to shoot both calibers at the same time to believe that fact.)

The biggest hurdle to overcome is to get a 9 x 25 Dillon barrel for a 10mm gun, and for that you generally have to get a 38 Super barrel (Nowlin is a brand that has been suggested to me) and ream out the chamber.) The reamers exist and can be obtained - it's getting somebody competent to use it that might be a challenge. (Although I doubt there is any gunsmithing job that JP of jprifles.com can't accomplish.) I suspect that for more common gun designs, like the 1911, 9x25 Dillon barrels may exist already made. Either the people at Dillon or STI would probably know about that. Seeing as EAA has no spare 38 Super barrels to sell right now, and I have a Colt Delta Elite, I may try this route first.

Once fired 10mm brass is 7 cents per round at the gun shows, so that's cheap, and jacketed 9 mm bullets are cheap also. Reloading bottle necked pistol cases is easy.

Cartridges of the World, Volume 11, list the following load:

100 grain FMJ RN w/17.2 grs. of 296 gets you 1769 FPS for 690 ft-lbs.

That's the same energy as a Norma factory spec 10mm load, but probably with a lot less recoil. I suspect the terminal ballistics of this round with a Speer Gold Dot would be fairly lethal.

Although it's irrelevant for personal defense, I would expect you would have little if any sight correction at 100 yards with this round. I barely notice any for the 10mm round that's going 500 FPS slower.

Interesting. But the comment that you made that the 9x25 Dillion was developed to allow competitors to compete in major without doing insane things with the 9x23 in a .38 super barrel. I believe the 9x23 has thicker brass in the web or case head area for this exact reason, to do within it's limits what a .38 super case can't. Also, didn't Rob Leatham also use to compete with a 9x25 but had so many problems with that cartridge and went back to a 9x23 because it was so close in ballistics? He also added a couple rounds in the magazines, the case size of 9mm over the 10mm, but that is not the point of discussion.

Not trying to rain on your parade, I mean I love my .475 Linebaugh and the last deer I shot was with a .35 Whelen, so I do use some of the not preferred cartridges. Just wanted to clarify and maybe I am getting some of my facts mixed.

Very interesting. Sounds, at first blush, like it's one of the relatively few wildcats for which there is a legitimate use, albeit a gaming one. (I'm not, just in case somebody thinks I'm going all Zumbo, going to argue that some weird cartridge for which there is no legitimate use ought to be banned, or something. It's just that it seems to me that the vast majority of wildcats end up reinventing wheels, and often square wheels.)

As a 38 super shooter I'm bias; but why go through all the trouble and risk with barrels, modifications, necking down casings. ect. When a 38 super will make major all day and run 100%?

9mm in major became semi-popular due to cheap brass, however it is not without a trade off. Reliability is still not as good as 38 super and making major can be tough based on the bullet, powder, primer mix. Plus working in major pressures do you really want to shoot brass of unknown origin. Brass that is claimed to be once fired is not always once fired and if its form a Glock it needs to be roll sized.

My race gun gunsmith, Brazo, still says 38 super is the way to go and builds well over 95% of his guns in 38 super. The few we makes in 9mm are guys predesposed to round and not really looking at what works best. He provided load data and even spec'ed the brass brand when he built my gun. He was within 30fps of major when I worked up my load and .1 of powder got me on the mark.

I purchase new 38 super brass mark it and pick it up, at these pressures and speeds I want to eliminate as many variables as possible. The result is after 5000 rounds I have 100% reliability.

I shoot 9mm as well in a Springfield EMP so I'm not against the round, just using it to make major due to the risks and messing around needed to do it.

FWIW: The part about the 9x25 Dillon replacing the 38 Super loaded to insane levels is a direct quote out of Cartridges of the World, Volume 11. Even if the 9x23 case heads are strong enough, and I'm sure they are, there is still the problem of the primers dropping out of the cases after they are fired. When that starts happening, you know you're WAAAYYYY over the limit.

The other thing that I find interesting is that in YEARS of asking, I have never had anybody "fess up" to what powder charges they were using in their 38 Super to make Major power level. The reloading manuals list a maximum value of 1450 FPS for 38 Super loads, but there is published data out there for close to 1800 with the 9x25. Can you make a 38 Super run at close to 1800 with loads that you can never afford to put into print? Maybe, but, I guess I really don't want to find out. Being a handloader, going to pressure levels where the case is shot after one or two reloadings sort of defeats the whole purpose of reloading, unless you got an IPSC "jones" so bad that you're willing to go there. That's the other thing about a 9x25 case - it's really a 10mm case, which is really a 30 Remington RIFLE case to begin with. So the case head was built to take rifle pressures originally. That can't be said for either real 38 Super cases, or 9x23 cases.

I will keep you appraised about what happens in my search for a 9x25 barrel. Just the loading data in intriguing - 17.2 grains of 296 under a 9mm bullet?? That's hotter than Pat Cannon's avatar is ugly!!!

Maybe I'm confused but why would you need to go 1800fps? If you use 125gr bullets you only need 1320 to make major 165PF. Even at the old 175PF 1400fps would get you major.

The reason you will not find major 38super loads in any books is these loads are not meant to be shot from most 'stock' pistols, thus most reloading books are not going to print anything on the edge. Published loads are well within the safe zone. That said there is a ton of load info on various web sites for making major in super 38, any gunsmith making race guns worth a dime will provide safe and reliable load data.

My loads make major very easy, they show no primer flow and my cases resize great with no signs of stress. But would I share my data in a public forum, nope, not with the potential liability. Privately at shoots, guys share the info very openly and its understood they are not recommending anything just sharing what works or them.

That said I also load 40 down very low, so my young son can shoot minor, but as he gets older can upload to major with the same gun. With the help of a good gunsmith, we resprung it to cycle with the reduced recoil, it runs 100%. Again, nothing in the books, but but with the right research and expert help it was done safely and reliabily.

If you move to limited class .40 is the caliber of choice and most stock ammo will make major; but in open custom guns are more the rule and stock loads are not going to do it. Heck even in 9 you will not find any load data to make major published in reloading books.

Also if 9X25 is really a 10mm case you're going to loose magazine capacity comparied to 9mm or 38super, that alone would be a huge competitive setback. I've never heard of 'Cartridges of the World' before but they obviosly have not been at a USPSA shoot in the recent past. Outside USPSA, super 38 has a large international following because as a 'non military' caliber it can be used by civilian in countries that ban military calibers form the public, mexico as an example.

And in starting my search for 9 x 25 Dillon barrels, what do I come across but FACTORY AMMO from the people at DoubleTap.

Check out the specs - 115 grain bullet - 1800 FPS - 827 ft-lbs.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_24&products_id=29

And if that isn't enough, they have 9 x 25 BARRELS for Glock 20's!! URRRRP!!!! HRRRAAAAUUULLLPPP!!!! RAAALLLPPPHHHH!!!!!

Didjagetsomeonya, Pat??

Dear mmcnx2: Thank you for the very informative and definitive numbers on what you need to make major power level. You are right, getting a 38 Super to put a 125 grain slug out the front at 1320 is no big deal. From the way other reloaders were talking (and also REFUSING to talk) I thought the velocity might be off the top end of the reloading tables.


As far as why you need to get a 9mm bullet up to 1800 FPS, it has nothing to do with IPSC, and I have never set foot in the IPSC world. I have, however, handloaded for the 256 Winchester Magnum, the original 44 Automag, 50AE in both the pistol and a 20" bbl AR upper, 440 Corbon Magnum, 10mm, 45 Super, 50GI, and 500 S&W. And for the ultimate perversion, I did some load development work for Alex Zimmerman of Guncrafter Industries for the 50GI cartridge IN A SMITH 500 PISTOL. (You gotta use moon clips...) Do you see a pattern?? I don't like to do stuff that everybody else does everyday. Simple as that.

Thanks again for the info, and I think it's great you got your kid shooting minor in the same sport.