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 Which criteria are most important for you? 
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 Post subject: Which criteria are most important for you?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:59 pm 
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After a great class on Saturday (thanks Andrew), I decided to make a trip to Gunstop to get a look at a good compact auto for carrying concealed. On the short list were the Bersa Thunder .380, the Glock 26, the Kel Tec P-3AT, and the Kahr P9.

As I tried each, I realized that I was having a hard time deciding which criteria I needed to rank the highest for this purchase, having never purchased for the concealed side of things before.

The Glock is the natural pointer for me, hands down, no question about it. I point dead-on with a Glock. All others naturally point slightly down for me (as my shooting at the range lately has shown...). It is the thickest of the bunch, thereby making pocket carry more difficult. It also isn't that much smaller than a Glock 19, which made me think "if I'm looking at the 26, why not just get the 19...?"

The Bersa's manual safety is on the left side, and since I'm a left-handed shooter getting that safety off in a hurry was just not going to happen. I tried it, and I just could not find a good way to do it. Size wasn't that much smaller than the Glock either. I'm pretty much done considering the Bersa due to those issues.

The Kel Tec absolutely disappears in a pocket. It just felt...well...cheap, which is what it costs. Cost is very appealing. Lower caliber is a minus, as is no place to put my pinky (I have large hands).

The Kahr felt GREAT in the hand, while still disappearing in a pocket. Great trigger as well! Cons? Pricey, and does not point nearly as well for me as the Glock.

How would those of you who carry everyday rate these criteria? I'm torn between concealable, cost, and natural point. Cost isn't THAT big of a deal, but it's still on my mind. Would you take the cheaper, very concealable option in a lower caliber (Kel Tec), the great feeling gun that still conceals and has a great trigger, but is spendy and doesn't point perfectly (Kahr), or the good feeling gun that points perfectly but is much harder to conceal (Glock)?

Something to bear in mind...I do not always work and function in environments that are gun friendly. In other words, I will have to go without a gun quite often unless I have something that WILL NOT print or reveal, hence why the Kahr or Kel Tec in a pocket holster seems like a good idea...I don't like the idea of losing my job, but I also don't like the idea of losing my life. :?

Sorry for the novel,

-Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:11 pm 
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Take the G26 and hold it over the G19. The G19 isn't that much bigger. I carry a G19 IWB and I've never had a problem with concealment. It's comfortable and it has become so familiar to me that I don't really notice that it's there.

Of course I also carry the P3AT in my left pocket. It does feel cheap but I've found it to be surprisingly accurate and I haven't encountered the reported failures, feed, fire, or ejection. Truth be told it isn't a pleasant gun to fire. The recoil has to be absorbed somewhere and that somewhere is your hand.

The G19 is more economical for practice and there are more holster choices.

How's that for not answering your question? :bang:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:25 pm 
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DDB_99 wrote:
Take the G26 and hold it over the G19. The G19 isn't that much bigger. I carry a G19 IWB and I've never had a problem with concealment. It's comfortable and it has become so familiar to me that I don't really notice that it's there.

Of course I also carry the P3AT in my left pocket. It does feel cheap but I've found it to be surprisingly accurate and I haven't encountered the reported failures, feed, fire, or ejection. Truth be told it isn't a pleasant gun to fire. The recoil has to be absorbed somewhere and that somewhere is your hand.

The G19 is more economical for practice and there are more holster choices.

How's that for not answering your question? :bang:


LOL Actually, good points. I did do a side-by-side with the 19 and 26, and you're right, they are very close unless you don't use the magazine pinky extension.

I'm a bigger guy, so I don't know how well IWB would work. Damn love handles. :lol: I did think about that, though...if I could IWB, a tuckable holster might work. I wear dress slacks and shirts everyday to the office (not always a jacket, though). I know people say to dress around the gun, but wearing a jacket every day would actually attract attention...we're a little more casual than that.

-Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:29 pm 
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For me, thickness matters most. I've never figured out a way to carry a thick gun comfortably. I like being able to get out of my seat at a movie theater without having my pistol catch on the arm.

So I like the Kahr's, because they're thin. (Well, and because of their quality workmanship, but there are plenty of high-quality fat guns.)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:49 pm 
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If IWB won't work I would have to go with a pocket pistol, maybe even a <gasp> revolver. Maybe one of the single-stack nines?

I don't often have to wear a tucked in shirt. When I do I've found that the Crossbreed holster works pretty well with my G19.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:10 pm 
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DDB_99 wrote:
If IWB won't work I would have to go with a pocket pistol, maybe even a <gasp> revolver. Maybe one of the single-stack nines?

I don't often have to wear a tucked in shirt. When I do I've found that the Crossbreed holster works pretty well with my G19.


My revolver is the "grab it and it will work" home gun that the wife knows how to use (older S&W Model 60). The single stack 9's are smaller in profile, which I like (the Kahr is a primo example).

-Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:41 pm 
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I started this carry thing not too long ago wanting to just buy one gun, but soon realized that I'd need at least two.

All winter I've used my S&W M&P .40 full size with one of Srigs IWB holsters, but with spring around the corner, I'll need something more concealable. My plan is to go up to the Carry Depot one of these days and test drive a Bersa and a Keltec in .380. I'll then have options.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:49 pm 
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If this is a serious issue for you, it seems to me the only answer is BOTH. If you're really concerned about your and your family's safety, how can cost outweigh reliability, accuracy and utility? But when you can't carry the larger one, the smaller is better than nothing.

That said, my permit's relatively new and I don't carry a lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:24 pm 
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JonL wrote:
If this is a serious issue for you, it seems to me the only answer is BOTH. If you're really concerned about your and your family's safety, how can cost outweigh reliability, accuracy and utility? But when you can't carry the larger one, the smaller is better than nothing.

That said, my permit's relatively new and I don't carry a lot.


Valid points...and at the same time, that seems to be how firearm ownership works.

I can just hear the conversation with my wife: "I swear honey, I just turned around for a few minutes and the guns reproduced!"

-Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:29 am 
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Because the Glock point well for you buy one for a primary and a Kel-tec P3AT or P32 for a pocket gun. With those two your covered 99+% of the time for carry needs. :)

Because of my meaty hands Glocks point hight for me but S&W MP40c is perfect for my needs.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:50 am 
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Given your criteria, I think the Kahr may be the best compromise for a FIRST carry gun. SLIM so it will conceal IWB, OWB, Pocket. Given its trigger pull, it's almost a combination of a DA revolver and a Semi-auto. The Long pull IS the safety.

DO NOT carry ANYTHING else in the same pocket as a pocketed gun. ALWAYS carry a pocket gun in a pocket holster. LINT is your enemy. pocket guns and carry guns in general usually require more regular inspection and cleaning.

A good observation has been made re: G19 > G26. With the G19 you get a longer barrel (higher velocity, more power, longer sight plane) AND a shorter grip. It's generally the grip that prints.

I'm a big guy (Damn love handles) and can comfortably carry IWB and tuckable. The trick is a bodyguard/slide guard on the holster. Srigs has some good sideguard holsters. They may not be as pretty as some of the really expensive stuff you'll wait months for but who is going to see it anyway? They're dead on functional, available, and reasonably priced. AND Srigs is a good guy.

Think about adding a fleece vest to your dress code. It's a good in between garment. not too dressy, not too casual. Gradually add it in BEFORE you start using it as a cover garment. then any comments of ribbing will be out of the way, it'll be a normal mode of dress, and etc before it starts serving its intended purpose.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:59 am 
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At this point -- I've been carrying for just about a dozen years, at this point -- I'm more analyzing why what works for me works for me than I am establishing criteria and choosing based on them.

That said, I think I come down to:

Reliability, for obvious reasons.
Revolver; see above.
For pocket, no more than 2.5" tube (although with some pants, a three-inch barrel is just fine, with a good pocket holster)
On the belt, 4" barrel.

I think the tactical advantages of a pocket snubby are huge, for most folks, most of the time; that said, there's something to be said for carry on the belt, if you've got a good belt.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:51 am 
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I carry G26 , pinky extension, with a High Noon tuckable IWB holster. Very happy with this set up and tend to forget it is there when worn with A GOOD BELT. Many days I wear a dress shirt with no jacket. No one has ever noticed except for a lady friend who was "hugging" me. I figure I should carry the same as I practice with, and the mag ext allows 12 +1 vs. P3AT 6 + 1. Buy the G26 or G19 for yourself, then buy the P3AT for the wife, before or after she gets her permit. Being a south paw, you may want to consider XD Sub with ambi mag release.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:05 am 
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Since I answered you specifics rather than my preferences, here's a go:

1) reliability. If it meets all the other criteria and doesn't work ALL the time, EVERY time, all else is a waste.

2) Accuracy. This is mostly on you. with practice, you can become proficient with most guns. If you can't hit what you want, you're in a world of hurt for two reasons: You don't stop the threat and you RISK others.

A GOOD belt makes ALL the difference, even when pocket carrying.

Buy what points and shoots well for you. Your wife is not you. This is not a one size fits all activity.

Concealed carry is an exercise in trade offs. You're trying what is the best balance for YOU. You are inevitably going to make some concessions between shootability, stopping power, concealability, access, comfort, dress style, and gestures / activities.

A bigger gun is easier to shoot and has better ballistic performance but is harder to conceal without dress changes.

A smaller gun is generally easier to conceal but harder to shoot.

These are generalities. Most things can be overcome with the right combination of gear (holster/belt/gun) and dress/placement.

Best of luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Which criteria are most important for you?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:08 am 
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mrokern wrote:
The Bersa's manual safety is on the left side, and since I'm a left-handed shooter getting that safety off in a hurry was just not going to happen. I tried it, and I just could not find a good way to do it. Size wasn't that much smaller than the Glock either. I'm pretty much done considering the Bersa due to those issues.

If you de-cock the Bersa and then take the safety off you will be good to go. It will now be essentially just as safe as the Kahr or the Keltec.

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