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 What is this and anyone have one? 
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 Post subject: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:57 pm 
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So I'm sorting brass from the last range outing. Whoever was in the stall before us left a bunch of brass so I swept it up and copped it. Find a piece headstamped 45 G.A.P. It looks to be .45 diameter but the case is shorter than a regular .45 ACP.

Anybody feel like expounding on this caliber and why it came in to being? Expecially if they have a pistol (no rim, I'm assuming not a revolver round) in this caliber?

I know, I'm sure I could do a wiki but I'd rather hear from you guys.

Thanks,
Hobie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Google is your friend grasshopper....

.45 gap, aka .45 GLOCK auto pistol.. supposedly .45 acp performance in a 9 mm length case.



http://www.gunblast.com/Glock37.htm

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/new_45/

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:09 pm 
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It's a stupid round that Glock made so they could feel special. It's a 45acp that forgot to take its vitamins. There are about 6 people in the civilized world who shoot it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:13 pm 
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bensdad wrote:
It's a stupid round that Glock made so they could feel special. It's a 45acp that forgot to take its vitamins. There are about 6 people in the civilized world who shoot it.


I'm sure people said the same about the .357 sig, and now the Secret Service uses it.

Only time will tell if .45GAP takes off. There are some law enforcement agencies using it, and Springfield is offering a XD chambered for it as well.

-Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:20 am 
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Supposed to be .45 ACP-like ballistics in a smaller package, so you can have a smaller framed pistol to shoot. Grip size can go down, frame and slide width can lessen as well.

I've never tried a .45 GAP pistol. Anyone?

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 Post subject: Glock being Glock
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:11 am 
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As someone else said, it is a Glock cartridge, they supposely made it to reduce grip size on their pistols, they also say given its shorter length it cycles better. Which in a Glock may be try given the original design was for 9mm.

Balistically it is another round that serves minimal value, it does nothing a 45acp won't do. I've shot the Glock in both ACP and GAP, can't say I could tell the difference. I personally passed on them both, I like my Glock in 40 and the 9 I had was OK. 45's well they just belong to be in a 1911.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:00 am 
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The 45 GAP is already dead and buried, with Springfield refusing to chamber it in any of their hicap guns, and it's buried right next to the 41 Action Express. Glock wanted to try and get a 45 upper on their 9mm frames, and came up with a 9mm length 45 ACP cartridge to try and do this. So: You got hard to find brass and ammo, at inflated prices, all for the sake of trying to shave a few tenths of an inch off the width of a 9mm Glock chambered for 45?? That's a hell of a long walk around the park for a gain that small, and that's ONLY if you like Tupperware (:{) to begin with. Considering the humongous selection of sizes in 45 ACP guns these days, the 45 GAP has no point whatsoever.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Seismic Sam wrote:
The 45 GAP is already dead and buried, with Springfield refusing to chamber it in any of their hicap guns, and it's buried right next to the 41 Action Express. Glock wanted to try and get a 45 upper on their 9mm frames, and came up with a 9mm length 45 ACP cartridge to try and do this. So: You got hard to find brass and ammo, at inflated prices, all for the sake of trying to shave a few tenths of an inch off the width of a 9mm Glock chambered for 45?? That's a hell of a long walk around the park for a gain that small, and that's ONLY if you like Tupperware (:{) to begin with. Considering the humongous selection of sizes in 45 ACP guns these days, the 45 GAP has no point whatsoever.


Not disagreeing, I think it's a solution looking for a problem...but Springfield has both XD Service and XD Tactical models in .45GAP.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:56 pm 
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http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar81.htm

Quote:
The .45 ACP, GAP, SAP
By Joseph D'Alessandro Editor | RealGuns.Com

When I first read the May issue of Shooting Times, with its cover .45 GAP headline "GAP Wins!" and related article, I thought "Neat, a new low water mark for how far a publication will go to sell guns and ammo for manufacturers. Within the "apple to apple" comparisons, Shooting Times compared what amounts to a reduced capacity .45 ACP cartridge, operating at .45 ACP +P pressures, to standard and lower pressure factory .45 ACP cartridges. The technical representation was more of the same, where a table compared the two cartridges through dissimilar ammunition types, ammo supplied by companies pushing the new cartridge. Even the test guns were assembled with shorter than typical .45 ACP length barrels, which would obviously favor a lesser capacity cartridge. The author indicated he was shocked that the GAP prevailed, besting the .45 ACP's performance, something he didn't believe was possible. Fortunately, engineers from the ammo suppliers ATK (Speer) and Winchester assured him it was so and, as the author put it, "These guys are smart..." Which, I can only assume means the rest of us are not. Now that I've had time to reflect....

The .45 Short Automatic Pistol Is Born

I wanted to be open minded, and not jump to the conclusion that the GAP was perhaps a less than candid way for firearm and ammunition manufacturers to save million per year in material cost, through a few cents per round cost reduction in brass and powder content from every round they sold. Real Guns rolled up its sleeves, especially the right one, and went to work on this concept advanced by Glock and the .45 Glock Automatic Pistol round. The end result is the Real Gun Short Automatic Pistol round. Pictured right - the .45 ACP, .45 GAP and .45 SAP. We found the concept of a shortened case, in fact, had technical merit, offering benefits galore for the average shooter.

Burn Superiority

One factor that quickly became apparent was the more we reduced case capacity, the less powder it took to achieve the same velocity, without increasing pressure. The powder charges pictured left, resulted in identical performance, in their respective and labeled cartridges. Hey, we were surprised too. We originally intended to cut a GAP case down from .775" to .675". Unfortunately, due to a small adjustment error on our powdered RCBS trimmer, we sailed right through the .675" length and set .500" as a maximum case length. As this pressure/volume cause and effect seemed to not fall in nicely with the laws of physics, or even Charles and/or Boyle, we decided to refer to the condition where a small case demonstrates well above 100% efficiency as "Burn Superiority". So for the time being, the term "BS" will be used until we can get a more defined scientific explanation. Optimized performance was attained with non-conventional propellant. In our case, the lab came up with equal measures of Blue Dot, saw dust and just a dash of oregano. Could have been cheddar, we sometimes we eat lunch in the lab when we run short on time.

P² Primers

Most of you will know that oregano is a little tough to ignite, I'm pretty sure the kindling temperature is around 6,000°F. For the sake of complete combustion we used a primer developed specifically for this project. In heavier bullet weights, 230 grains and above, the primer actually extends into a recess punched into the heel of the bullet. These primers carry the RG size designation P² or 12 EEE; manufacturer dependent.

Comparisons
Cartridge Bullet Wgt MV ME Bullet Drop @ 50 Yards
.45 SAP 185 900 fps 333 ft/lbs/liter -38"
.25 ACP 50 760 fps 64 ft/lbs/liter -112"
.32 S&W 85 595 fps 67 ft/lbs/liter -739"
.22 Short 20 410 fps 7 ft/lbs/liter -1100"
50 BMG 750 2800 fps 13,060 ft/lbs/liter -.025"

Clearly illustrated, the SAP outperformed all but one cartridge of similar design and intent. We are working diligently to overtake the last, and we are sure we will eventually get there, but we may need to make the SAP case just a bit shorter. Perhaps a Super Short Automatic Pistol cartridge is in order?

Observations of Unique Characteristics

The SAP bullet is not effected by gravity, unlike most traditional rounds. The bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel, drops for .2-.3 MS, then rises and flies parallel to the earth for the first 50 feet or so. We think this is a result of the power of a short fat case, similar to pyramid power of the late 1970's. Recoil is quite modest, in fact it is gentle. Shooting the .45 SAP was not unlike the euphoria of attending Wrestle Mania for those of you who have been spending an excessive amount of time handloading. All I know is, since shooting the .45 SAP, my car gets better gas mileage, my kids stopped making fun of me and my wife thinks I'm a pretty good guy. Wait...yup, my breath is even fresher.

Firearms for the SAP

We tinkered around with one of our SIGs; chopped, channeled and sectioned, until we had a model chambered for the .45 SAP (actual size). We are pretty sure it could be sold on the retail market for about $25. All we need to do is collect our lab data and head for New England and SIG headquarters... We'll keep you appraised of the law suits.

Thanks,
Joe

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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:07 am 
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[quote="mrokern
Not disagreeing, I think it's a solution looking for a problem...but Springfield has HAD both XD Service and XD Tactical models in .45GAP.

-Mark[/quote]

I mis-spoke myself there. Springfield DID come out with 45 GAP camberings, but when these got dropped from the line everybody in the gun community clearly heard the other shoe drop.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this and anyone have one?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:11 am 
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Seismic Sam wrote:
[quote="mrokern
Not disagreeing, I think it's a solution looking for a problem...but Springfield has HAD both XD Service and XD Tactical models in .45GAP.

-Mark


I mis-spoke myself there. Springfield DID come out with 45 GAP camberings, but when these got dropped from the line everybody in the gun community clearly heard the other shoe drop.[/quote]

Got it, didn't realize they'd dropped them (they are both still listed on the Springfield website).

I'll stick with .45ACP myself, anyways. :wink:

-Mark


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