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 40 S&W 
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 Post subject: 40 S&W
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:45 am 
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Well - here it is

After spending 14 years studying 9mm and shooting well over 100,000 rounds of the stuff from various makers and handloads - I have coem to the realization that 40 is the way to go.

The 155's shoot just like 124 9mm's and in the right gun - all is good. I picekd a 229 for a 40 and I am sooo pleased with that choice I cannot tell you how well that actually shoots.

It is beyond cool to shoot that gun. 40 is something that I may spend another 14 years studying and pondering. Here is the deal - some of you know that I am in the body armor business - I know what works...

Against an unarmored assailent - the 40 is going to give you the performance and penetration that you need - armor is a whole other ball of wax.

I am starting to really like the 40 - the more I shoot it - the more I understand it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:53 am 
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It's been my favorite semiauto carry caliber for some time. There's lots of very compact vehicles for it, and with the right grip and enough practice it's as controllable as 9mm. While I'm not crazy

That said, for a fullsized semiauto, I'd go with either .45 or 10mm -- the latter of which is, ballistically, just a superhot .40 .

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 Post subject: Re: 40 S&W
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:33 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
Well - here it is

After spending 14 years studying 9mm and shooting well over 100,000 rounds of the stuff from various makers and handloads - I have come to the realization that 40 is the way to go.


I fully respect your decision.

Since you won't need `em any more, can I have all of your 9mm guns, ammo and dies? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:47 pm 
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joelr wrote:
It's been my favorite semiauto carry caliber for some time. There's lots of very compact vehicles for it, and with the right grip and enough practice it's as controllable as 9mm. While I'm not crazy

That said, for a fullsized semiauto, I'd go with either .45 or 10mm -- the latter of which is, ballistically, just a superhot .40 .


I tend to stay away from 10mm's as I have read that they tend to over penitrate.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Lets talk for a moment about overpenetration -

A 9mm will go forever take my word for that. 9mm Nato at about 1200 FPS is about as penetrative as it gets save for some of the really premium stuff (Win RA9TA)

When you shoot - count on two holes with just about every caliber that you shoot - yeah even a 45. Ever see what a 230 gr JHP will do at slow speeds? YIKES - two holes - count on that.

If a HP is subsonic count on the fact that it will not open up reliably - light and fast = expansion - MOST of the time but not always - remember that a handgun is a marginal weapon at best as far as its ability to deposit a tremendous amount of NRG on target.

A 223 with 55gr HP's opens reliably in almost any medium - especially a wet one.

That is why the golden rule says "Target and BEYOND"


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 Post subject: Re: 40 S&W
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:07 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Pinnacle wrote:
Well - here it is

After spending 14 years studying 9mm and shooting well over 100,000 rounds of the stuff from various makers and handloads - I have come to the realization that 40 is the way to go.


I fully respect your decision.

Since you won't need `em any more, can I have all of your 9mm guns, ammo and dies? :)


I didn't say I was sick of 9mm - I just think that I may just have it figured out completely.

The 40 is something else when it comes to its ability to impress me. It is fun to have a new pet toy and try to figure it out. The more that I handle and work with that Sig the more confidence that I have in it. Slick little package.

HOWEVER - if you want to load 9mm - come on over - we can crank that out just as fast as you please.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:09 pm 
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joelr wrote:
That said, for a fullsized semiauto, I'd go with either .45 or 10mm -- the latter of which is, ballistically, just a superhot .40 .


You made a typo! You meant to type .40 is just a weak 10mm.

Everybody knows that .40 S&W stands for ".40 short and weak".

:)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Pinnacle wrote:
Lets talk for a moment about overpenetration -

A 9mm will go forever take my word for that. 9mm Nato at about 1200 FPS is about as penetrative as it gets save for some of the really premium stuff (Win RA9TA)

When you shoot - count on two holes with just about every caliber that you shoot - yeah even a 45. Ever see what a 230 gr JHP will do at slow speeds? YIKES - two holes - count on that.

If a HP is subsonic count on the fact that it will not open up reliably - light and fast = expansion - MOST of the time but not always - remember that a handgun is a marginal weapon at best as far as its ability to deposit a tremendous amount of NRG on target.

A 223 with 55gr HP's opens reliably in almost any medium - especially a wet one.

That is why the golden rule says "Target and BEYOND"


I agree with the golden rule, but sometimes you just don't have that choice; say in N MPLS, there is always something beyond.

I was also restating what was writen in the gun mags as to why LEOs switched from the 10mm to the .40 cal; the stated reason was over penitration.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:40 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
I agree with the golden rule, but sometimes you just don't have that choice; say in N MPLS, there is always something beyond.

I was also restating what was writen in the gun mags as to why LEOs switched from the 10mm to the .40 cal; the stated reason was over penitration.


If what's written about the Miami shootout is to be believed, UNDERpenetration was a bigger perceived problem than overpenetration.

The "switch" away from 10mm implies there was a switch to 10mm; from what I've read it never had that much momentum. S&W had trouble getting all the FBI-required mods running right on the initial batches of 1000-series pistols, and then the FBI found that some of their agents just couldn't shoot the 10mm and wanted it downloaded to what's called "FBI loads".

Once S&W figured out these lighter loads could be fired from 9mm-sized frames, .40S&W was born -- narrower grip frames, less recoil, more rounds in the mags.

In some ways we can thank S&W for some of the best 10mm guns -- the 1000 series are very reliable and built like tanks (your 10th round is the gun itself!), and the 610 is, like most N frames, a superb revolver.

But we can also hate S&W for crippling 10mm by putting so much support into .40S&W, but it's hard not to blame them, .40S&W makes a lot of tactical sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:55 pm 
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It would be interesting to have a penitration test of the 9mm, 10mm and .40cal to see for ourselves.

(they probebly already did a penitration test, and it is posted online, but that take all the fun away from doing it ourselves) :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:03 pm 
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40 seems to be one of the only compromise calibers that works well. The 40 with a 155 gr or even a 165 Gr Bullet shoudl provide a TON of penetration - the slower they go the farther they penetrate.

The Miami Deal was a screwed up deal to begin with- the early Winchester Silvertips 115 gr - were not built well - the newer generation of 9mm hi-tech projos penetrate even more than even the BEST 40 or 10mm JHP ever could.

There is no perfect answer - there will always be a high risk of pass through - there is no magic bullet - but the 40 against an un armored target makes a lot of sense. Big Diameter - big open HP - moving relatively fast (supersonic) does TONS of soft tissue damage and will penetrate more than adequately to get the job done for SD.

I have seen 9mm that will penetrate SO much material that it will scare the hell out of you to think that little stinker did all that damage - I have seen the 40 with even the best bullet hit the same target - and nothing more dramatic than the material doing its job happens. There is some 9mm out there that is so aggressive commercially available I may add - that is SO frightening it makes a 357 with a 125 JHP look tame. You should see what happens when that same bullet is stuffed into a 357 Sig!!!! Yikes.....

Bullet technology has come LIGHT years since the Miami shootout - the 9mm with the right ammunition is a great choice in SD sidearm - easy to shoot - holds lots of bullets - cheap to practice with ....

The 40 Shoots a realtively heavy bullet - moderately fast - with a big frontal area - easy to shoot (relatively) and not quite the price of 45 ammo. The 135 GR pills make for an intersting option in the summertime - the 165 makes sense in the winter to me - the 180 is a lot of bullet and is also an interesting choice for SD work when you want to be assured of MAXIMUM penetration.

Me I carry the 155 gr Federal Hydrashocks - they seem to open reliably - dont kick too hard - and are readily available.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:32 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
It would be interesting to have a penitration test of the 9mm, 10mm and .40cal to see for ourselves.

(they probebly already did a penitration test, and it is posted online, but that take all the fun away from doing it ourselves) :)


It'd be kind of interesting to take some of the usual suspect targets (ballistic gelitan, pig carcasses) and put a few up and see if you can penetrate one and actually get any penetration in the second.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:42 pm 
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mobocracy wrote:
grayskys wrote:
It would be interesting to have a penitration test of the 9mm, 10mm and .40cal to see for ourselves.

(they probebly already did a penitration test, and it is posted online, but that take all the fun away from doing it ourselves) :)


It'd be kind of interesting to take some of the usual suspect targets (ballistic gelitan, pig carcasses) and put a few up and see if you can penetrate one and actually get any penetration in the second.


Yep :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:51 pm 
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Pinnacle wrote:
40 seems to be one of the only compromise calibers that works well. The 40 with a 155 gr or even a 165 Gr Bullet shoudl provide a TON of penetration - the slower they go the farther they penetrate.

The Miami Deal was a screwed up deal to begin with- the early Winchester Silvertips 115 gr - were not built well - the newer generation of 9mm hi-tech projos penetrate even more than even the BEST 40 or 10mm JHP ever could.

There is no perfect answer - there will always be a high risk of pass through - there is no magic bullet - but the 40 against an un armored target makes a lot of sense. Big Diameter - big open HP - moving relatively fast (supersonic) does TONS of soft tissue damage and will penetrate more than adequately to get the job done for SD.

I have seen 9mm that will penetrate SO much material that it will scare the hell out of you to think that little stinker did all that damage - I have seen the 40 with even the best bullet hit the same target - and nothing more dramatic than the material doing its job happens. There is some 9mm out there that is so aggressive commercially available I may add - that is SO frightening it makes a 357 with a 125 JHP look tame. You should see what happens when that same bullet is stuffed into a 357 Sig!!!! Yikes.....

Bullet technology has come LIGHT years since the Miami shootout - the 9mm with the right ammunition is a great choice in SD sidearm - easy to shoot - holds lots of bullets - cheap to practice with ....

The 40 Shoots a realtively heavy bullet - moderately fast - with a big frontal area - easy to shoot (relatively) and not quite the price of 45 ammo. The 135 GR pills make for an intersting option in the summertime - the 165 makes sense in the winter to me - the 180 is a lot of bullet and is also an interesting choice for SD work when you want to be assured of MAXIMUM penetration.

Me I carry the 155 gr Federal Hydrashocks - they seem to open reliably - dont kick too hard - and are readily available.


I tend to carry my 9mm (glock 17) because I shoot it better and it is cheaper to shoot more often than the .40cal (a h&k usp). I generally us 127 gr hydro-shock or efmj for the 9 and and 155 gr federal hydro shcok /efmj for the usp.

I think I need to send more range time getting better at the USP, but the ammo is expensive! (waiting for sale at gander moutain) :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:05 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
mobocracy wrote:
grayskys wrote:
It would be interesting to have a penitration test of the 9mm, 10mm and .40cal to see for ourselves.

(they probebly already did a penitration test, and it is posted online, but that take all the fun away from doing it ourselves) :)


It'd be kind of interesting to take some of the usual suspect targets (ballistic gelitan, pig carcasses) and put a few up and see if you can penetrate one and actually get any penetration in the second.


Yep :)


The 9mm will penetrate like mad - the 40 will penetrate well. Count of the 9mm going through a shocking amount of material. And I do mean shocking .....


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