I carry a G26 myself quite often. I also consider my ability to run a sub 4-hour marathon one of the most important skills in my bag, at least as important as my ability to shoot fast and accurately.

I do believe that shot placement is critical in most matters, but I have to go with the .45 in this case for several reasons.

1.) Being if I were to hit you with a rock the size of a golfball, yeah it would probably hurt, I hit you with a rock the size of a baseball, even if it isn't moving as fast, its gonna hurt more and most likely put you on your A$$.

2.) .45 are more prevelent in smaller venues. Meaning odds are better in a small out of the way store, I will find .45 before I will find before the .40.

3.) If .45's weren't so great, then why are so many different company's making 1911's.

4.) It is the #1 round used by professional/amature shooters.

I carry a Kimber TLE II, the exact same thing that is issued to LAPD SWAT. I figure it's good enough for them, hey it is good enough for me. If LAPD SWAT is called in, things must have gone south and they are looking for quick decisive stops.

I think you overstate the momentum capability of .45 ACP. As David Dyer-Bennet pointed out, a .223 rifle round at 3000 fps is only 1/4 of the size of a .45 pistol round but will do a lot more damage.

I also think that a lot of open-class competitive shooters choose .40 or some of the many 9mm derivitatives (38 Super, 9x21, 9x23, 9x25) due to magazine capacity problems with .45 rounds (they're just too big).

I think so. All in all -- other things being equal -- I'd like to carry something in .44 or .45 or larger, but there is a definite size/weight tradeoff, and I'm pretty comfortable with my default of a .38 snubby.

That said, I've been known to be quite happy carrying a .44 snubby, and, at the moment, have my Kahr P40 on.

How often does J. Random Badguy both buy and wear it? How many civilians (or, for that matter, cops) have been killed because their shots were defeated by an attacker's body armor? Even in the LA shootout, some years ago, the cops just switched from COM to unarmored targets.

All in all, the hypothetical armored bad guy is a very fringe possibility in the first place, and -- at least when under only normal stress (high heart rate brought up by exercise) I can reliably point-shoot into a head-sized target at reasonable self-defense distances.

Not that that'd be likely to do me much good in that wildly unlikely chance that I was attacked by an armored bad guy, and didn't see retreat as a viable option -- it would undoubtedly take me several shots to COM to figure out that it wasn't working.

I think a lot of folks spend a lot of time worrying about and trying to prepare to handle preposterously unlikely and/or impossible scenarios -- and some (by no means all) of the bullseye-oriented shooters are the worst offenders.

According to my calculations, having a .45 is 1000 times better than not having a gun, whereas having a .40 is only 998.5 times as good.

I don't believe I have that equation..........where did you find it?

I cannot tell you, for, uh, national security reasons, the exact part of my anatomy those numbers were pulled out of. But they are true. Trust me.

mobocracy:

You are correct in this, then I suppose that all of us deer hunters should trade our .30-06's and .300 Win Mag's in on a .223. Oh that's right we can't use a .223 deer hunting, it's not a leagle caliber for big game, it's not BIG enough (so says the DNR). Lets get real here gentlemen. We can argue this till we are blue in the face and never come up with a viable solution. It's the whole apples and oranges thing.

It is all about personal preferece. As for capacity, it only takes one round and if you are going to need more than one mag, go back to the range.

By the way mobocracy if a .45 acp had as much shell (and powder) behind it as a .223 it would do more damage. But they do and it is a .460S&W, which I believe has very similar ballistics to the -06.

Joel you are also correct in your posting of


When I shoot IDPA we do try to incorporate running, use of cover, even pulling the downed good guys out of harms way. And for the whole LA thing, my personal opinion is any of those officers could have made a head shot on the 'armored' assailents it would have been over a whole lot faster. I know at 50yds+ I can make at least 3/8 head shots from a prone position with my .45 after running 50yds . Cause I have done it.

300 Win Mag is a bullet at least 3 times the mass of the .223 moving at the same velocity. It doesn't take a degree in physics to understand its going to have more power than a .223. And you don't have to argue it until you're blue in the face, just remember basic physics -- KE=1/2 MV^2 -- increases in velocity contribute exponentially to eneregy, while increases in mass are only arithmetic.



My comment about capacity was relative to competitive shooting, not defense shooting, where even fast mag changes cost time, thus the shooters preferences for smaller diameter cartridges that cram more into magazines. To meet major power factor its often super hot 38 Super or some of the 9x cartridges that can be more easily loaded hot without special frames or barrels.

But I presume for defense purposes you do recognize that it *might* take more than one and you actually carry a full magazine and perhaps a spare, vs. just one bullet, even though that's all it takes..



There's no denying that, but you made the claim that larger and slower is better than faster and smaller, and I merely pointed out that .223 rifle rounds pack far more power than larger, slower .45 rounds, due to the much higher velocity.

I have to call BS on this one. Physics time: I am a goalie. I play with guys who are or used to be in the NHL quite often (weekly in the winter). I take pucks going 100 mph directly to the chest, while on ice, wearing skates. I do it routinely, and I do it without falling over. So, that is 100% energy transfer of 1/2 pounds of vulcanized rubber, yet it doesn't do a damn thing to me, let along make me fall down.

Tell me again how something weighing 230 grains (that puck is roughly 3500 grains, and going 100 mph) is going to "put you on your ass?????

The correct answer is that, unless you hit the spine or brain, it won't.

? for Goalie
How many pucks to the chest have you taken without your pads being worn.

hockey players rule! he is automatically right because he is a jock. Leave him alone or he'll give ya a melvin, while I'm given ya the swirlly.

Okay, some time goes by.

Now that we are all (presumably, I know all about assume and how it makes an ass outta U and me) out of high school. I can tell ya that sports impacts and combat impacts are a world appart. Yeah, I have a bunch of martial arts training, and yeah, if you stand still and let me kick you COM, ya are gonna loose your feet, your wind, and your sense of humor . . . and my feet don't fly anywhere near 100 mph unless I am on the crotch rocket. Pads or no, ya gonna go down. Now, if I poke a knife in ya, it is gonna go right into your flesh and it is gonna penetrate, and barring bones I'm gonna stick one of your vital organs and while ya are thinking about that hot nasty feeling, I am gonna give another one of your organs a bad day. And it is gonna go that way til ya are twitching your way to St. Peter. Brother let me tell ya, you were gonna be better off going down when my gun still had bullets cause if I gotta cut ya down it ain't gonna feel nice. Point is, something as slow as my stab/ slice rythm will get through to all the places it needs to. If ya put yourself on the wrong side of my skills and weapons (by commiting a crime which obligates me to kill you) velocity and mass (I carry a CRKT M21 in the larger size but haven't devised a way to measure the velocity and mass of the blade vs. say the velocity and mass of a bullet through the same medium) only play second fiddle to the ability to keep one's head and stop the bad guy til he stops. I have every confidence that within say 21' my knife will stop anybody's clock just as quick as a .500S&W . . . but what that really says is that I don't care about the caliber. Shot placement is vital, stab or slash placement is vital, and in the end .40 and .45 are so close in real stopping power that it all comes down to a choice between a marginally bigger capacity or a marginally bigger entry wound.

So what did I choose in the poll? Well, I didn't actually answer. I wouldn't presume to know more than some here and I only really know what has worked for me in combat. I just wanna say that how you use it may play a much bigger role in the end results of self defense shooting than what equipment you choose.

Now i just went back to page 4, where there is talk of panic. If ya wanna throw that into the mix, here are my thoughts: If ya gonna panic when stuff goes down, don't get a carry permit, and don't carry stuff. If you are prone to panic all you do is arm a possibly otherwise unarmed or under armed assailant(s). . .. ya are much better off counting on well equipped and legally carrying citizens or sworn law enforcement individuals to ensure your personal safety. When in doubt stay at home and dial 911 as often as makes you feel good. If ya aren't prone to panic it is almost a moral obligation to equip and carry to defend those who cannot regardless of whether you are part of the state or just a citizen (yeah, that was meant to be ironic because every citizen is part of the state).

The sun, moon, venus and a whole bunch of other stars and planets are in perfect allignment today... Your request has been answered at the following link...
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm

Take care

Mostly-