Well, yes and no. There's significant difference between Fords and Chevys, after all. And the differences between semiautos and revolvers are, perhaps, rather more significant, as are difference in calibers.What sort of fruit would you like? What do you think the result of a conversational poll should be? Inquiring minds, and all that.Well, yeah. Now, if you'd like a silly poll, I could put up on that asks, "Should you shoot something that you can't put rounds on the target with?"What does personal comfort have to do with it? I carry a snubby, because I can shoot it well, and think it makes sense; my own feelings about comfort with it are kind of irrelevant. (And, in fact, when I practice with +P rounds, it's anything but comfortable -- recoil, I've found, can hurt.)

Of all the firearms I own, the one I can -- at the range -- consistently make the smallest groups with is my Ruger Mark II bull barrel target pistol. In terms of comfort and just plain fun, it's the one I'll pick nine times out of nine. But, as comfortable as I am with it, I haven't chosen it as a carry piece, for reasons that should be obvious.

I was reading in the latest American Handgunner Magazine about a grandmother doing a store clerks job, shooting a robber once point blank in the chest and once in the back as he fled the store. He managed to run to a local hospital, where, as of the writing of the story was still living. The story is unclear what she is shooting, a 38 I think.

Accuracy is nice, but you have to have the stopping power as well. I don’t think I would carry anything smaller than a 9mm or a .40 cal. on me (or .357 in a revolver).

I have seen enough people shot in the course of my career, that I can say with certainty that 22LR to cranial vault is lethal! I have seen 3 shot burst from 9mm SMG to the chest fail to stop. I have seen a 45ACP fail to stop at point blank range Then again I have seen one 230gr Hydrashock drop someone like a sack of Idaho potatoes! I have seen how you can add new meaning to the concept of texturizing the ceiling with a 12ga birdshot round, but at the same time I have seen 12ga birdshot do nothing but cause a few welts! It is a matter of shot placement, and yeah caliber has something to do with it. The poll will still come down to Ford vs. Chevy no matter how you wish to paint it!


Joel if a person is going to carry or use a gun for SD. I could care less if you carry S&W 13 or Ruger SP101 or Sig 226. What matters if your ability to employ it! People sure as all hell should have an intimate relationship with their chosen firearm! Of course, you can throw in all kinds of permutations to skew the situation. Simply put any one employing a firearm in SD should have extensive range time with that gun and have confidence in the firearm. No one can argue that! Well some will try, but it will just be a waste!

I chuckle extensively with people who buy guns and slap ever accessory on it! Then they admire their new gun! They fail miserably at using the gun! Gee they spent all that money, and now have the tricked out 870 or M4forgery, yet they have not proven the weapon. To me this Mother of All screw ups! Just look at some of the posts on various board! Keep it simple stupid is lost on most people!

I'm not really interested in arguing against training and practice, but you're tempting me. All in all, I think the sort of categorical statements you put forward kind of miss the point about real folks' lives.

Let me give you an example -- real life, but facts fudged for privacy.

Bob has a small shop, and not much money, or firearms experience. Until recently, he hadn't picked up a gun since he was a boy, and only hunted a little, with a .22, then.

But he's seen others robbed -- and beaten, and worse -- and he wants to keep a gun to protect himself, not only in his shop and between shop and home, but when, say, he's going to make a bank deposit, or when he's off to the store to buy some toys for his grandchildren. He can't afford the time away from the shop for the extensive range work with his gun that you're sure he simply must have. And, besides, at $10 or more a box, ammo isn't cheap, and time away from the shop is hard to come by, and he can buy a lot of stuff for the grandkids with a few $40 range visits.

Odds are, if he ever does take the gun out for self defense, he probably won't have to shoot anybody. And even with the extensive training that you recommend, sheesh, he's a 60-year-old man, and he might never be able to use all that training under stress, anyway. Strong, healthy, well-trained young cops fail to "fall back" on their training all the time; he may well, too.

Should Bob carry for self-defense? He certainly isn't going to meet your standards. But what standards ought to apply?

His, or yours?

The truth has to be somewhere in between.

No amount of shooting is going to make any of us into Alvin York or Jeff Cooper, but the overwhelming majority of guns-saved-my-butt situations probably don't require much more than a presentation of a firearm. I'd bet even those involving firing of said firearm, just *firing* is probably effective against a bad guy that can run away; hitting is optional.

But there also have to be situations where the guy who expects the above situations to be true is sadly mistaken and firing and missing or not being able to manage misfires/reloads is a problem.

I'm reasonably comfortable with being able to empty my S&W 1066 into a GITS and keep them all in the white circle @ 21'. A 2" group would be pretty, but it's not necessary, but more than 2-3 rounds outside the circle (especially far outside the circle) is a problem, IMHO. I want to be able to defend myself close to the line where it might be considered a good offense, but I don't need the skills to put on a good offense.

(If I hear good proof that the Dead are walking the Earth, maybe I'll wish I had mastered a good offense, but there will be secondary problems to consider...)

Fair enough. I'm certainly not arguing that training is bad, or necessarily useless. I think it's a good thing, all in all, although my question is really how useful it actually is, in practice.

Do the states that have no training requirements -- PA springs to mind -- have worse results for permit holders than states that have extensive requirements? If not, then either

a: training doesn't much matter, either way, or
b: people, by and large, get the training that they think they need, and they're about as right where it isn't required as they are when the State mandates it.

Well, while you've been very critical of a dead friend of mine -- and while you're free to criticize him, I'll ask that you do so a bit more politely -- it wasn't lost on Darrell. He was a big believer in keeping it simple, as was Julio Santiago.

I find it odd how people like to talk about "stopping power" but for the most part don't seem to want to do anything but talk about it.

Maybe they just like to bs about it?

There are many ways to go about getting part of the answer. Reading gun mags isn't one of those ways.

One is to hunt or shoot animals with actual loads and see how they work. Yes that isn't the same as people but it will show you quickly that unless you hit brain or spine they don't get stopped all that quickly. Except with very tiny animals with high speed varmint loads.

You can also go to the medical community. You can talk to a medical examiner or to someone who does trauma or ER.

That will take a little effort, but actually less time and money than doing enough hunting or slaughterhouse killing of animals to learn much.

A medical examiner or doctor can't tell what caliber of weapon was used to wound/kill a person from the wound. They can tell the differences of some things like difference between rifle, shotgun, or handgun (well sort of, at longer range a rifle shot will look like a handgun shot).

Some resources:

This one is free online source for Vets [warning: they have pics of gunshot wounds]
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/IA/SRP/vfp/gunshot.html

have to sign up for this one
http://fsumed-dl.slis.ua.edu/clinical/e ... tspine.htm

have to sign up for this one
http://www.amjforensicmedicine.com/

a textbook
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 8?v=glance

videos
http://www.projectile.com/FP.htm

Joel you can subscribe to the altar of Darrel, and that is your right! But, other then raise a whole lot of BS what did Darrel Do? I am sorry any one can spew war stories. Perhaps that was Darrel's teaching technique. Shock and Awe might work with some, just not me! The class was disorganized, and the lack of range time is another sore spot. A patron of BVP once actually provided corrections to Darrell's CV. It was interesting to here the truth, not the glossed over areas the Darrel did not clarify.

When a person takes money for a service there should be a reasonable expectation of quality, But, then there is no quality assurance is there for MN CCW Instructors?

If there is potential to for someone to be faced with a potential lethal altercation, I would hope that they are confident. And, it is pathetic to buy a gun, take a entry level course taught by a rank amatuer, and then be impressed by war stories? There is not substitute for hands on range time! But, then would you go to Internal Medicine doctor for removal of brain tumor? No I do not think so. If you promote that just brandishing a firearm solves problems then you are way off base.

I could care less is a person is carrying Black Talons, Double Tap Ammo,
or 230gr Hardball. But, what I do care about is that they have confidence in their abilities. Confidence is not bred by listening to some BS. It is developed by practice!

Stopping power is something that the likes of Marshall and Sanow use to sell books. True stopping power is the ability to put rounds on target, and stop the aggression! Missing with a 10mm Double Tap round serves no purpose, when a solid hit from 9mm at least provide some degree lowering the circulating volume, wrecking the pipelines, or disabling the pump. Those three things terminate aggression. Not some super dooper round!

I say people need to put rounds on target, and if that means they choose a 9mm over 45ACP or the 40 Short and Weak so be it! Afterall, both the 9mm and 45ACP have been around for a very long time! I offer up the logic that a person can shoot twice as many rounds of 9mm for the same price as 45ACP.

From what I've seen here, stopping power does make a difference, but practice makes a HUGE difference.

So...how much practice is enough? Once we get some things around the house complete, I'm going to take a class to correct some of my stupidities in stance, aim, and other such things. Until then, I'm putting about 250-300/month through my .40, and about 200/month through my .38. Is that enough, or should I do more?

Luckily, range fees are zilch for me. I belong to two clubs and it's all taken care of.

Bartleby

I have to agree somewhat with both Ardent and Joel. The sight of a gun will cause some (most?) BG's to flee. Since the majority of us will never even have to draw a weapon in self defense that MAY be enough to keep you safe. But what if you run into someone that feels they can attack you because you don't look all that threatening? Or they are high on drugs and lose their fear? Then you also need the skill required to place your shot where it will do the most good. I like to feel I'm prepared for either situation and I hope I never have to find out if I'm right...

That's not what I'm doing, that's not what I've said, that's not what I'm saying. Is there anything you don't understand about that?

There is a big difference in the ability of 9mm, .40, and .45 to knock bowling pins off of tables.

If my 9mm can't knock a bowling pin off of a table how is it supposed to knock down a 300 lb meth freak in a fighting rampage?

My .40 puts the pins off the table. The guys who shoot .45 ... those pins REALLY fly. Those of you who have shot pin matches know what I'm talking about. Which is harder to knock over: A pin or a bad guy?

Shooting at gelatin or denim over meat can demonstrate shock, cavity, penetration, expansion. All good info. But if I'm attacked, I literally want the guy to go down, not keep shooting or stabbing for 30 seconds as his heart runs dry. I want him down. My own observations for the little that it's worth is that weight knocks things over, even if this is an ignorant thing to say in light of "shock" or velocity physics.

My .02.

How about

c: most people who carry don't ever have to use their weapons.

I'd argue that makes the answer

d: (A) and (C).

There are an awful lot of shootings (mostly criminal) where untrained people seem to be able to make weapons work to satisfy some end.

This says to me that the trainer ought to emphasize the legal mechanics of firearms self defense. The practical matters I think really are important to do so *successfully*, but most of the time will be spent avoiding situations where you cannot do so *legally*.

Here's my take. Whether you default to your training likely depends on your overall mindset. All the training in the world won't do you crap if you aren't willing to use it. Or if you're not paying attention to your surroundings. Or to put it another way, anyone can go through the motions and get the piece of paper at the end of a class but did you actually LEARN anything?

There is a difference between a Mn legal carry class and a class on how to shoot/combat shooting. If you want a permit to carry you need the former. If you want to be good with whatever you choose to carry, the latter would help.

And as someone who took Darrel's course for his first permit (pre-MPPA). His stories had a reason. Yes, they could be taken as "war stories" but if that's all you got out of them, you weren't paying attention. They made you think. I was in a class of three so we all got a chance to put our foot in our mouth . But Darrel then explained the what's and why's. Pre-MPPA there wasn't much around for actual carry instruction. Especially if you don't live in the metro area. And I knew enough that I wanted some level of appropriate training, not just a DNR safety cert.
As far as the level of range time, it just seemed like a rubber stamp. If I want to shoot I have a family farm where I can do just about anything I want as for as practice. How many ranges will allow you to draw from a holster and fire? How about low light firing? How about both?

ardent observer, to me you seem to be arguing just for the joy of arguing.

Steelheart