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 Which is best? 

Which has more stopping power, .40 or .45 caliber?
.45  58%  58%  [ 35 ]
.40  8%  8%  [ 5 ]
They have the same stopping power, or so close as to make no difference.  33%  33%  [ 20 ]
Total votes : 60

 Which is best? 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:41 am 
One-half of deaths among trauma victims occur within 1 hour of injury and are due to rapid hemorrhage or CNS trauma. Well, no matter the mumbo jumbo spread by various posters, not one person can validate any other methodology of stopping an aggressor! Cut the motor or wreck the pump pretty darn simple! And, then if you factor in recreational chemicals into the mix well..... Gee guys we are back to square one! If there is no pump to circulate the epi, dopamine, and the recreational substances there is no problem!

The basic assumption is shoot the aggressor till the aggression is terminated. That might occur with one round or might occur at slide lock! But, while doing that you need to constantly reasses the threat, or other threats. Shoot, move to cover, and reassess!

There are those that will say this expands to X and the 45 cal is already at 45caliber. This means nothing if you do not hit stuff that causes damage to the pump or it's ability to pump, or you cut the motor! People will say what they want about Black Talons, or Federal Hydrashocks, Speer Gold Dots expanding or doing this or that. When you hear cries of the BT's injuring the care giver by infecting them with HIV or Hep C, well that means that darn bullet did not do it's job! There is viable patient on the operating table or ER bed!

I love paramedics, ER nurses, and ER Docs. But, they can not raise the dead! And, if any one wants to look up the odds living to discharge of traumatic arrest secondary to GSW induced blood loss I am sure Goalie can give direction! :lol:

Body armor is all to easy to buy! Just look on any BBS and you can find some, including the plates that stop heavy duty rounds, ie 223, 308, and others!

So for all those that promote anything but aimed fire go to bed! The real world is 360 degrees! And, spraying and praying is not effective use of bullets!


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:55 am 
Here is an excellent post! http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420879


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:21 pm 
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I just joined glock talk a few days ago, but it is just to big for me to keep with!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:25 pm 
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Tell ya what, you keep believing that BS about needing the become a marksman to defend yourself. All the money you spend doing that is going to keep some american employed and I think that's great.

In the meantime, I pray that you never have to find out the hard way that when you are in a defensive situation none of it will mean diddly squat and you will point shoot whether you like it or not.

That is unless you have been looking down a muzzle so many times in your life that you are desensitized to the fight or flight reaction you are going to have. But then if that were the case your ego wouldn't be requiring you to so vehemently defend your opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:34 pm 
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This is very off topic, but your kitty looks very cute, what is his/her name?

We have 4 :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:37 pm 
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That's spot.

I'm down to two right now - and a dog.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:03 pm 
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We just lost 2 this summer, one to old age (she was 22) the other to kidney failure and a stroke. My German Shepherd -Shadow- died a few years ago from cancer. You can see him if you look real hard next to the barn.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:10 pm 
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Quote:
That is unless you have been looking down a muzzle so many times in your life that you are desensitized to the fight or flight reaction you are going to have.


I don't buy that. I think the ability to remain calm in a dangerous situation is more genetic and the frequency with which you find yourself staring down a gun barrel has little to do with it. I don't think you can train yourself not to panic if you are predisposed to panicking.

Growing up on a working farm put me in more emergency situations than I care to remember, and to a degree people tend to respond in either one of two ways: they either remain calm and do what they need to do to survive or they roll over and urinate wildly on their soft underbellies. It really didn't seem to matter what was the nature of the emergency. The respondants internal hard wiring seemed to make more of a difference. I suspect that those who are hardwired to react in the former way will produce more accurate shots in a life-threatening situation than those who react in the latter way.

This must occur on a daily basis among our troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Guys who consider themselves tough and macho probably fall to pieces and get killed while ordinary people with more intestinal fortitude step up to the challenge and become heroes the very first time they stare down a gun barrel.

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Bristol’s Bastards: In Iraq with the 2nd Battalion, 136th Infantry of Minnesota’s National Guard: Bravo Company of Minnesota’s National Guard fought alongside the Marine Corp in Al Anbar province through the deadliest period of Operation Iraqi Freedom, kicking down doors, dodging IEDs, battling insurgents, and trying to help one another survive in the deadliest place on earth. Available in bookstores everywhere. For autographed copies, visit bristolsbastards.com


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:22 pm 
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I remember A TV show that was cancled about guy and a boy that traveled in time using a pocket watch. The show was cancled mid-season as the Star of the show put a gun to his head loaded with a blank cartridge in the gun and pulled the trigger. The paper wad lodged in his brain and he died several days later.

Just because this "worked" for him doesn't mean I will start carrying blanks around though... And I personally wouldn't recomment carrying anything small than a .38 special, I also don't like 10mm to much as I have been told it over penitrates which is why the gov agents using it quickly switched to the .40cal.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:24 pm 
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I'm not talking about panicking. That's very different. But even without panicking, when the adrenaline gets pumping, people do not react the way that they think they will, no matter how macho their daydreams are.

I'm not saying that all training is completely worthless and I'm definitely not saying practice is worthless as it's needed most of all to make operating that gun an automatic thing. But when you make it sound like the only way you are going to live through it is to shut down the "motor or the pump" by using your expert marksmanship to put rounds precisely in the aorta or evaluate the situation and decided that the perp is wearing body armor and now you're going to use your expert marksmanship to put one in the brain you are full of hot air and there's a ton of research and video footage that proves that.

There is a way to overcome the affects of adrenaline to keep your wits, vision and motor skills about you - experience. However, I hope I'm never in the situation where I have to use a gun to defend myself even once much less be in those situations so much that I'm desensitized to it so that I no longer have the normal physiological reaction anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:26 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
We just lost 2 this summer, one to old age (she was 22) the other to kidney failure and a stroke. My German Shepherd -Shadow- died a few years ago from cancer. You can see him if you look real hard next to the barn.


I lost me previous dog a little over a year ago. It was shortly after we learned that he wasn't a pure bred husky, but he was half wolf. He went for my throat one day - dead dog.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
But when you make it sound like the only way you are going to live through it is to shut down the "motor or the pump" by using your expert marksmanship to put rounds precisely in the aorta or evaluate the situation and decided that the perp is wearing body armor and now you're going to use your expert marksmanship to put one in the brain you are full of hot air and there's a ton of research and video footage that proves that.


There are enough vital bits in the center of mass that you don't have to be freaking Calamity Jane to do sufficient damage with a COM hit. All you need to do is get a round or two in roughly an eight-inch circle and you have just increased your odds of surviving the encounter dramatically. Practicing will make this much more likely. And frankly until I see evidence of a single incident in which a civilian was unsuccessful in defending him or herself with a handgun in a legitimate self-defense situation because the bad guy was using body armor, I'll consider any argument about body armor ridiculous.

_________________
Bristol’s Bastards: In Iraq with the 2nd Battalion, 136th Infantry of Minnesota’s National Guard: Bravo Company of Minnesota’s National Guard fought alongside the Marine Corp in Al Anbar province through the deadliest period of Operation Iraqi Freedom, kicking down doors, dodging IEDs, battling insurgents, and trying to help one another survive in the deadliest place on earth. Available in bookstores everywhere. For autographed copies, visit bristolsbastards.com


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Lobotomy Boy wrote:

There are enough vital bits in the center of mass that you don't have to be freaking Calamity Jane to do sufficient damage with a COM hit. All you need to do is get a round or two in roughly an eight-inch circle and you have just increased your odds of surviving the encounter dramatically. Practicing will make this much more likely. And frankly until I see evidence of a single incident in which a civilian was unsuccessful in defending him or herself with a handgun in a legitimate self-defense situation because the bad guy was using body armor, I'll consider any argument about body armor ridiculous.


Which just supportsmy assertion of point shooting at COM.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:50 pm 
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ardent observer wrote:

Gabe Suarez pretty much always has something interesting to say.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:39 pm 
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How many times have we heard it? “The 45 ACP will drop a man 19 times out of 20”. “Only a sissy boy would carry a 9mm or a 38”. Rubbish. I have a friend “down south” who has been in close to 50 shootings. There are still places on earth hot enough for such activity. I asked him what caliber and guns he used most of the time. Other than rifles and SMGs, he used a Glock 17 with 9mm ammo. Curious, I asked him what he loaded it with. Military ball. Its all he can get there as any expanding ammo is forbidden. I advised him that back in the USA 9mm ball is thought of as unreliable for anti-personnel use. He shrugged and said his adversaries hadn’t got the news, and that he’d shot them “a bunch in the chest and if that didn’t work shoot them immediately and repeatedly in the head“.

It’s a good thing his gunfights did not occur in Arizona because apparently certain calibers don’t work there.


Yeah, I do like it when people agree with my point of view, especially people with a resumee like Gabe's.

Oh, and Lobotomyboy does have a point. I think that today, after working as the critical care resource at a 600 bed inner-city hospital for years and doing cpr, shocking people and all that stuff literally hundreds of times, that I would be calmer and more relaxed in a gunfight than I was back in the Corps, when I had all the training, was young and gung-ho, but lacked real-life experience. The best light I can put on my own performance in my first firefight was that I didn't panic, and I did my job. I think today, with similar recent training like I had back then, I would be able to do my job with a much cooler head.


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