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 Police Ammo 
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 Post subject: Police Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:23 pm 
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I know back when I tok my P2C class from DonL a couple years ago he said the Mpls police were using Federal Hydrashoks and he suggested that if it was good enough for them, it was good enough for us.

Anybody know if they still use Federal Hydrashoks?

What do other metro police depts prescribe for their officers?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:28 pm 
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I am told St. paul went to Federal EFMJ and possibly MPLS as well

Federal EFMJ page


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:38 pm 
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OH, I am told the Hydro-Shock can plug when passing threw heavy clothes and not expand. The EFMJ was made to solve that problem.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:06 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
OH, I am told the Hydro-Shock can plug when passing threw heavy clothes and not expand.


I've heard that too, but nobody has ever shown any evidence of it to me. It always sounded like a bunch of crap to me - a range rat's urban myth. Of course, I'm willing to be proved wrong.

The Hydra-shok bullet is skivved to aid expansion into a number of petals and any material getting in the hollowpoint is just going to force the petals outward more as it encounters further resistance. That's the whole idea behind a hollow point.

I am under the impression that the EFMJ was developed for politically correct agencies that prohibit hollow-point ammo. I've also heard on other forums that the EFMJ may have a failure to expand rate of about 20%.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:54 pm 
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DeanC wrote:
grayskys wrote:
OH, I am told the Hydro-Shock can plug when passing threw heavy clothes and not expand.


I've heard that too, but nobody has ever shown any evidence of it to me. It always sounded like a bunch of crap to me - a range rat's urban myth. Of course, I'm willing to be proved wrong.

The Hydra-shok bullet is skivved to aid expansion into a number of petals and any material getting in the hollowpoint is just going to force the petals outward more as it encounters further resistance. That's the whole idea behind a hollow point.

I am under the impression that the EFMJ was developed for politically correct agencies that prohibit hollow-point ammo. I've also heard on other forums that the EFMJ may have a failure to expand rate of about 20%.


Now I DO NOT have any hard and fast rules or any stats on the expansion of JHP's - but I would be willing to bet that they fail to open in more than 20% of shootings....

Federal H-Shocks are good bullets in use by a lot of departments. BUT there are a lot of other choices. In a 45 I carry BALL - 230 gr BALL

In my 40 I carry a handload with a 180 Sierra JHP's going about 990fps

My 9mm's get fed Winchester 127+P+ @1325 fps.

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An aside

When you bring a pistol to a rifle fight - AKA any shooting basically - we are counting on one of 2 things - an immediate cessation of CNS activity or bleed out -

Exit wounds bleed much more better than entrance wounds.......

PISTOLS DONT HAVE THE POWER to instantly incapacitate someone unless it is a serious CNS hit (Cranial Ocular Cavity) or a darn solid heart shot - which may or may not end hostilities before the BG gets a chance to kill you.

SO - with a pistol - make 2 holes = I know i know - Target and Beyond - there is a trick to the beyond deal that I can show you. Remember that even with an UBER COOL JHP there is a really good shot at the bullt just whistling through anyhow - friend of mine shot a guy with a 357 sig - through the bad guy - through the plate glass door - through the windows on his jeep and as far as we all know that bullet is still traveling. (when I discovered that he air cops were carrying a 357 sig - I just shook my head... There is a reason that they need that much penetration though... )

Take a knee if you can and it is appropriate... Practice this.... I can show ya how.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:25 pm 
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DeanC wrote:
grayskys wrote:
OH, I am told the Hydro-Shock can plug when passing threw heavy clothes and not expand.
I've heard that too, but nobody has ever shown any evidence of it to me. It always sounded like a bunch of crap to me - a range rat's urban myth. Of course, I'm willing to be proved wrong.

The Hydra-shok bullet is skivved to aid expansion into a number of petals and any material getting in the hollow point is just going to force the petals outward more as it encounters further resistance. That's the whole idea behind a hollow point.
hydro means water or fluid, the round uses body fluids to cause the expansion, that why it won't expand when it is plugged.

DeanC wrote:
I am under the impression that the EFMJ was developed for politically correct agencies that prohibit hollow-point ammo. I've also heard on other forums that the EFMJ may have a failure to expand rate of about 20%.
IDPA_Shooter has a friend named Tony who works for MPLS PD, I am told that he has attended several autopsies in St. Paul where EFMJ was used and the expansion was very good. Although I have noticed that recently the law enforcement version of the round was dropped from 124g to 105g and the round was made a +P.

I personally use hydro-shock in the non-jacket months and EFMJ in the jacket months. I personally think ANY premium round will do a good job, I just like buying Minnesota products when I can. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:30 pm 
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grayskys wrote:
DeanC wrote:
grayskys wrote:
OH, I am told the Hydro-Shock can plug when passing threw heavy clothes and not expand.
I've heard that too, but nobody has ever shown any evidence of it to me. It always sounded like a bunch of crap to me - a range rat's urban myth. Of course, I'm willing to be proved wrong.

The Hydra-shok bullet is skivved to aid expansion into a number of petals and any material getting in the hollow point is just going to force the petals outward more as it encounters further resistance. That's the whole idea behind a hollow point.
hydro means water or fluid, the round uses body fluids to cause the expansion, that why it won't expand when it is plugged.

DeanC wrote:
I am under the impression that the EFMJ was developed for politically correct agencies that prohibit hollow-point ammo. I've also heard on other forums that the EFMJ may have a failure to expand rate of about 20%.
IDPA_Shooter has a friend named Tony who works for MPLS PD, I am told that he has attended several autopsies in St. Paul where EFMJ was used and the expansion was very good. Although I have noticed that recently the law enforcement version of the round was dropped from 124g to 105g and the round was made a +P.

I personally use hydro-shock in the non-jacket months and EFMJ in the jacket months. I personally think ANY premium round will do a good job, I just like buying Minnesota products when I can. :)


Grey

All JHP's use water to make them open up - remember that H2O cannot be compressed? Thats is why they open up - water has to go somewhere.

we are like 98% water.... And in the winter about 98% clothing hereabouts......

That Tony you speak of - I know him well - GOOD SHOOTER... Best I have ever seen.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:37 pm 
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And it's HYDRA-shok, not "hydro".

Hydra refers to a multi-headed beast. Maybe in reference to the center post or the multiple petals of an expanded round.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:48 pm 
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well what ever the spelling, it is what I read about the round.

it could also mean:

www.dictionary.com wrote:
Any of several small freshwater polyps of the genus Hydra and related genera, having a naked cylindrical body and an oral opening surrounded by tentacles.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:21 pm 
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The Box'o' Truth handled JHP here -> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm
They show an unexpanded jhp after passing through denim, water, and boards next to a Hydrashock that expanded perfectly. They didn't shoot it through the denim though...

and ExtremeShock ammo here -> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
which is an interesting round. They shot the Ranger XST through denim into water. They concluded the ExtremeShock, despite having tactical ninja looking guys in their ads, does not live up to its claims.

the BOT is really cool.


Last edited by plblark on Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:34 pm 
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plblark wrote:
The Bo'o' Truth handled JHP here -> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm
They show an unexpanded jhp after passing through denim, water, and boards next to a Hydrashock that expanded perfectly. They didn't shoot it through the denim though...


Well worth a look it certainly disproved the point about the .30 cal carbine not having the power to penetrate clothing. Now I can feel comfortable with my m-1 carbine as a home defense option :)

Is 30 rds sufficient for the average home defense encounter? or should I keep a couple extra mags handy :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:01 pm 
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crap... I started looking at the BOT again... there goes my time ;-)

He handles small guns in two installments. the interesting one for me is #27 -> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm

results:

Quote:
a round of Power Ball, .38 Special +P 100 grain, advertised at 1400 fps. -> It penetrated 5 jugs and came apart. Four jugs is considered the optimum minimum penetration since it equals about 12 inches of BG penetration. This one did even better than that.

Then a round of Federal Premium .38 Special High Velocity 147 grain Hydra Shok JHP (P38HS2G). Penetrated 4 jugs and expanded as designed.

finally, the round that everyone in-the-know says is the best of the best for short barreled .38 Specials, the Speer Gold Dot, .38 SPL +P 135 gr. GDHP. Sure enough, it expanded as designed and penetrated 4 jugs.


a picture:
Image

I think Pinnacle needs to send him some DragonSkin and a dummy to play with ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:03 am 
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I think if you contacted BOT and gave him the $ for the ammo he would do the tests for you.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:05 am 
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matt160 wrote:
I think if you contacted BOT and gave him the $ for the ammo he would do the tests for you.


Seriously, it'd be worth the money as viral marketing. The AR15.com guys have some loose screws and some REAL experts but that community is HUGE and word gets around.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:32 am 
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Good link plblark.

Now - back to my question - what are the PD's using for ammo?

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