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 Yup, caliber newbie 
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 Post subject: Yup, caliber newbie
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:07 am 
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As I admitted in a different thread, I dunno squat about ammunition. So I'm thinking I've got some of the smartest gun folks anywhere on this forum, why not pick your brains?

So I'll start with something very simple, since that more or less describes just about everything about me. I have a Glock 17. A friend of mine gave me a box of "Fiocchi" "9 Luger" ammunition. It says "Full Metal Jacket 115 gr" on the box. I shot about 100 rounds of it, it seemed to shoot well with no FTF issues.

While at the range, I ended up shooting more than I anticipated and needed to purchase additional ammo at the range (whoa, won't do that again). This time I ended up with "Lellier and Bellot" which apparently is also FMJ and 115gr.

A quick good search revealed that the "Luger" label defines the type of round, which apparently is synonymous with "NATO" and 9x19 when looking at box labels.

Another quick search revealed FMJ means non-expanding. Gotta love Google.

Anyway, I was surprised by the fact the two different brands actually shot differently. The L&B stuff seemed to have less recoil and less flash. The ammunition also had little red dots of something over the primers which initially concerned me, but I experienced no FTF problems. I'd appreciate any insight anyone may have into this experience given according to the boxes, they have identical specifications.

The boxes also indicate it's a good idea to keep the boxes out of the reach of children, but the boxes failed to warn me against shutting down a European city by leaving a single round on the ground.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:01 am 
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Red dot on the primer is sealant.

Yup there are a lot of different load combinations for the same bullet. Luger is the firearm that the round was first chambered for.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:36 am 
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Very normal for different type of ammo to shoot differently. Flash, smoke and recoil are impacted by amount of powder used and type.

You might also find some ammo you gun shoots POA (Point of Aim) = POI (Point of Impact) and some does not. So it is trial and error. Keep shooting different types to determine a type that works best for your needs.

Great questions by the way! :D

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:36 am 
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The two that I find kind of funny are Winchester White Box and Remmington UMC both in 9mm.

The Winchester has a good deal more recoil then the UMC. Also a little more velocity out of the WWB. we also took a shell of each and lay them next to each other, the Winchester is a good quarter inch longer then the UMC.

Another big difference that we have found on different types of ammo is how thick the rims are. Big differences there too.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:35 am 
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Well, you can find a primer (heh) somewhere else, but here are the basics.

First, "9mm" is (roughly) the diameter of the bullet. The "19" in "9x19" is the length of the case, in millimeters. "115 grains" refers to the weight of the bullet: a grain is 1/7000th of a pound (or 1/438th of an ounce, or 1/15 of a gram), so 115 grains is about a quarter-ounce bullet.

"FMJ" doesn't mean non-expanding. It means "full metal jacket" -- the lead bullet is completely covered with a copper jacket, which reduces lead fouling in the barrel.

Bullets can have different shapes at their tip. Practice ammo is generally "ball" ammo -- with a round nose. There is also "wadcutter," with a flat nose, and "semi-wadcutter" which has a round nose with a smaller flat area at the tip.

For personal defense, most prefer "hollow point" ammunition, with a hollow cup in the nose of the bullet. The theory is that the hollow point helps the bullet to expand, or "mushroom," as it travels through an assailant, making a bigger hole and causing a quicker end to hostilities. Such expansion is by no means guaranteed.

The biggest difference not reflected on the packaging is the type and amount of gunpowder inside the cartridge, which play a part in how much muzzle flash you see and what type of recoil you perceive for a given gun.

Beside the raw amount of gunpowder inside, different powders burn at different rates, which can change the feel of the recoil, from a "push" for slower-burning to a "slap" for faster-burning.

Reloaders could talk a lot more about the intricacies of that than I could -- I am but an egg in these matters.

If the gunpowder/bullet weight combination results in a certain degree of higher pressure, the ammunition will be labeled "+P" for "plus pressure." Even "hotter" loads may be labeled "+P+". You shouldn't shoot this stuff unless you know that your gun's manufacturer has certified that your gun can handle it.

I hope that gives you a head start. I found this stuff very confusing when I first started -- it is assumed around here that everyone knows the "basics," which is far from true. I still see technical terms I don't understand. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:45 pm 
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First off, thanks to everyone for your helpful replies!

Andrew Rothman wrote:
"FMJ" doesn't mean non-expanding. It means "full metal jacket" -- the lead bullet is completely covered with a copper jacket, which reduces lead fouling in the barrel.


It would appear I misunderstood this sentence from the WikiPedia article on 9mm Luger Parabellum (or the article is wrong I suppose):

Quote:
There are many anecdotal reports of soldiers being shot with 9 mm full metal jacket (nonexpanding) bullets in the extremities and not even realizing it, or at least not being slowed down.


Based on Andrew's helpful explanation of ball, wadcutter, etc, I suspect this sentence should have read FMJ ball ammo instead of putting parenthetical information after FMJ.

I'd like to update our Wiki with this information, but I would more than likely end up coping most of my info from WikiPedia, and as I've already demonstrated I apparently lose a bit in translation ;)

To kinda keep this thread moving along (as well as my education in the subject), Andrew explained how different shaped ammunition is labeled. I assume this is to affect aerodynamics and impact results?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:16 pm 
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I believe that among full metal jacket ammunition, how the bullet is shaped has more to do with pistol function than ballistics. Most 9mm and .45acp FMJ are round nosed which generally feeds the most reliably, while most .40s&w is truncated cone to allow rounds with larger and heavier bullets to fit better in 9mm sized magazines.

Hollowpoint ammunition is designed to expand as a manstopper for defensive or combat purposes as Andrew stated, solely with the idea of inflicting maximum shock and damage to soft tissue while limiting penetration to minimize the chance of hitting something behind your target that you'd rather not.

9mm Luger was named because it was designed for use with the Luger pistol. Also as Andrew stated the size of the round is 9x19mm, it was designed for war (para bellum), and is the current NATO spec handgun ammo. That's why all of these names can be associated with basically the same 9mm ammo.

Most wadcutter and semi-wadcutter ammunition is non jacketed lead, designed mainly for cheap accurate target shooting, and is named for the fact that its sharper outside edge cuts a neat round hole in paper targets, basically cutting a paper wad from the target.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:39 pm 
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NATO spec and 9mm luger are not the same.

NATO specs actually are quite hot for a round out of the 9mm. In SAAMI specs, it would be almost if not equal to a +P+ round. Something I have seen tear up more than it's fair share of Beretta M9's. A steady diet of NATO or +P+ will not be healthy for most pistols.

It can be identified with a cross in a circle much like a scope and crosshair.

Just as someone can sell SS109 for the .223, it is not NATO ammunition. SS109 is the projectile in the ammunition. The powder, brass, primer, projectile and sealant all together would be the NATO spec.

Again, id'd by the circle and crosshair on the case head.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:39 pm 
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Jeff, and Pinnacle,

I just have to pick a nit.......

Luger was the name of the man who invented the pistol and the ammunition.

Georg (pronounced Gayorg) Luger was the man and Parabellum-Pistole was the pistol, there were many variations, the most common one was the P08 (Pistol accepted by the German army in 1908) . The pistol was first chambered in 7.65×23 also called "Luger"

Here's some more info from wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P08

Edited for Farmerj

Nato spec ammunition varies wildly, from some very soft shooting Dynamit Nobel offerings (which will not cycle the P08) to the extremely hot Radway Green which was designed for the Sterling and the Browning HP (Which will cycle the P08). This stuff is so hot, that in my 4" P7M13 I chrono-ed a 177 power factor.
(MV x Bullet weight over 1000)


:D :D :D

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:14 am 
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Thanks for the clarifications.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:58 pm 
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Fubar, if you think European developed rounds can be confusing, the U.S. market is twice as bad. While most European rounds are a close approximation to their actual measurements, U.S. originated rounds sometimes take a few extra liberties.

A couple examples: The .38 Special actually measures 357/1000 of an inch (which is why a .38 Special fits perfectly into a .357 Magnum handgun). The “rounding error” was actually a holdover from the cap and ball days when the true measurement of a ball was slightly smaller than the barrel it was designed to fit into (which gave the operator a little wiggle room when ramming the ball into the barrel). When the .357 was developed, the inventors went with the true measurement of the bullet (the name “Magnum” was borrowed from the name for an extra large champagne bottle). Interestingly, the .357 case actually didn’t need to be that long – the development of smokeless powder allowed for much higher pressures such that a .38 case could be pressured much higher than previously used, but the developers of the .357 didn’t want the much more powerful round to be loaded in .38 Specials that weren’t designed for the higher pressure, so the longer round ensured that .38s could be loaded into .357s, but not the other way around.

A couple other oddities: The .380 ACP measures .355 of an inch (the same as a 9MM); and the .357 SIG (developed by SIGARMS and Federal) also measures .355 of an inch, but the marketing wizards at SIG and Federal wanted to elicit thoughts of the .357 Magnum (and mimic its ballistic performance) when they introduced the round, so they “rounded up” by about .002 of an inch.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:43 am 
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And, since the group is into picking at nits...

It's Sellier, not Lellier. Fairly inexpensive, shoots OK but hardly match grade. It's commonly called S&B.

Welcome!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:49 am 
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I understand some Germans refer to S&B as "Schlecht und Billig" which translates to "awful and cheap." I haven't found it to be the former, but then I'm happy if I can hit the target at whatever distance I choose to shoot at.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:49 am 
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JonnyB wrote:
And, since the group is into picking at nits...

It's Sellier, not Lellier. Fairly inexpensive, shoots OK but hardly match grade. It's commonly called S&B.

Welcome!

jb


Known in Germany as Schlecht und Billig, translation, bad and cheap.

I've seen hundreds of hard primers, non-fires (after multiple primer hits) and I've even seen one without flash holes. :? :?
Cheap practice ammo, but don't bet your life on it.
:shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:11 pm 
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Selurcspi wrote:
Jeff, and Pinnacle,

I just have to pick a nit.......

Luger was the name of the man who invented the pistol and the ammunition.

Georg (pronounced Gayorg) Luger was the man and Parabellum-Pistole was the pistol, there were many variations, the most common one was the P08 (Pistol accepted by the German army in 1908) . The pistol was first chambered in 7.65×23 also called "Luger"

Here's some more info from wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P08

Edited for Farmerj

Nato spec ammunition varies wildly, from some very soft shooting Dynamit Nobel offerings (which will not cycle the P08) to the extremely hot Radway Green which was designed for the Sterling and the Browning HP (Which will cycle the P08). This stuff is so hot, that in my 4" P7M13 I chrono-ed a 177 power factor.
(MV x Bullet weight over 1000)


:D :D :D


Cool with me.

I absolutely adore 9mm for target shooting and action sports - it can make a zero like me look like a hero.....

I have shot a lot of guns - trust me - 9mm is still the favorite for a lot of reasons. My first pistol was a 9mm. My second was a 9mm - third was a 357, then a 45 then a 44 then a 22

All of them are good. I still like a good old 9mm.


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