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 Gabe Suarez: IS CAPACITY IMPORTANT IN A PISTOL?? 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:31 am 
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Another expert......missed one of the counts :shock:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...tion/article.do
Police marksman suspended after shooting civilian during pistol demonstration
31.05.07

The victim was apparently being shown the workings of a Glock pistol like this when it went off.

A police marksman is under investigation after accidentally shooting a colleague in an extraordinary blunder.

The victim, a civilian employee, was seriously injured in the accident at a lecture room at the HQ of Thames Valley Police near Oxford.

He was apparently being shown the workings of a police Glock pistol when it went off, blasting him in the torso.

The victim, aged in his 50s, was left writhing in agony with blood pouring from the wound.

He underwent emergency surgery and his condition was described as serious but stable.

The hugely embarrassing incident prompted a major internal investigation and stunned officers.

One police source at the HQ said: "There are a lot of red faces about this. Why the hell was an experienced firearms officer demonstrating with a loaded pistol in an enclosed environment?

"Someone's head will have to roll."

The victim was among a group of about a dozen civilian employees attending a pre-lunch lecture at the Kidlington headquarters when the blunder happened.

New employees were being shown the work of the tactical firearms unit when the gun went off and the man was hit at close range.

He was taken by ambulance to hospital in a serious condition, having lost "a lot of blood".

The police source added: "There was a tremendous hoo-haa as it was realised the gun which he was showing off had actually 'got one up the spout' and had shot one of his colleagues.

"There was lots of claret (blood) about as a result of the shooting and the officer was immediately suspended and his gun seized."

In a statement the IPCC said: "We are conducting an independent investigation into the discharge of a Thames Valley Police firearm that occurred yesterday.

"The incident occurred during a Thames Valley Police firearms awareness training course, when one bullet was discharged, wounding a member of police staff (a control room operator) in the torso.

"The wounded man, who is in his 50s, is in hospital in Oxford and is in a serious but stable condition.

"The firearms awareness session was taking place in a room on police property in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, and involved 11 police control room operators from across the force.

"Thames Valley Police referred the matter to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, and IPCC investigators have attended the scene of the discharge today, and begun to gather evidence."

IPCC Commissioner Deborah Glass added: "I have decided that we should conduct an independent investigation, using our own investigators, to establish the circumstances of this incident.

"The investigation will examine how live ammunition came to be present in a firearm during an awareness session and consider whether any criminal or disciplinary offences have been committed."

She added that details of the police marksman who fired the gun would be a matter for Thames Valley Police to reveal if they wished.

:P :P :P :P :P :P


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Apparently Glocks and police do mix! :wink:

Repeat after me...
1. Drop the mag
2. Verify that mag is out of the gun
3. Open the slide and lock it back
4. Check chamber and leave the gun locked back
5. Recheck the gun again

It is good for police to have mag safety disconnects I guess. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:53 pm 
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A couple of years ago, when we still lived in MPLS, the sirens woke us up on a sunday morning early when a DB was found behind a garage in the block next to ours. Not far from the body was discovered a a cheap (Maverick?) pistol. The officer picked it up, racked the slide than dropped the magazine. My wife said to me, its still loaded, and pointed to the gun. I was standing next to another officer who taking a statement from the neighbor who found the body. I got his attention and said "that gun's still loaded." He looked at me rather oddly and said the officer "Safe'd that weapon," I said my wife says its still loaded and I believe her. So he went over and picked it up, and while looking at me like I was crazy, racked the slide and the last 9mm came flipping out of the ejection port. WIfe said fairly loud, "first the mag then the slide,"

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:09 pm 
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If there wasn't already a Mrs. e5, I might be asking if Mrs. 1911fan had a sister...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:29 pm 
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1911fan wrote:
A couple of years ago, when we still lived in MPLS, the sirens woke us up on a sunday morning early when a DB was found behind a garage in the block next to ours. Not far from the body was discovered a a cheap (Maverick?) pistol. The officer picked it up, racked the slide than dropped the magazine. My wife said to me, its still loaded, and pointed to the gun. I was standing next to another officer who taking a statement from the neighbor who found the body. I got his attention and said "that gun's still loaded." He looked at me rather oddly and said the officer "Safe'd that weapon," I said my wife says its still loaded and I believe her. So he went over and picked it up, and while looking at me like I was crazy, racked the slide and the last 9mm came flipping out of the ejection port. WIfe said fairly loud, "first the mag then the slide,"


Good one, two thumbs up to Mrs. 1911fan.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:19 pm 
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cobb wrote:
1911fan wrote:
A couple of years ago, when we still lived in MPLS, the sirens woke us up on a sunday morning early when a DB was found behind a garage in the block next to ours. Not far from the body was discovered a a cheap (Maverick?) pistol. The officer picked it up, racked the slide than dropped the magazine. My wife said to me, its still loaded, and pointed to the gun. I was standing next to another officer who taking a statement from the neighbor who found the body. I got his attention and said "that gun's still loaded." He looked at me rather oddly and said the officer "Safe'd that weapon," I said my wife says its still loaded and I believe her. So he went over and picked it up, and while looking at me like I was crazy, racked the slide and the last 9mm came flipping out of the ejection port. WIfe said fairly loud, "first the mag then the slide,"


Good one, two thumbs up to Mrs. 1911fan.


Even my wife knows to drop the mag first! Good paying attention by Mrs 1911fan. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:21 am 
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People who teach shooting often say that women learn the best because they come in with a blank slate.

My wife came from a farm and knew how to shoot a .22 bolt but that was it. After she was home alone and had some guy beating on the house door, (already inside the front porch.) looking for someone we had never heard of, she decided to learn. She asked me to teach her more. I started her off even before that, but when she decided to learn how to really shoot, She decided that she wanted a good friend who was a engineer and a life time hunter to teach her. That way, the husband wife dynamics were removed.

This friend showed up with a very defined chart of learning. I wish I had kept it, but it worked very well. It started with talking about muzzle control and went from there. He very much drilled it into her head that safety did not come from a switch or lever, but from the operator. She took the issues to heart and to mind and now is an excellent weapons handler.






One side bit, Men if you are the type who might stray from the wedding vows, do not teach your wife how to shoot. When we were dating she stayed at the house I was living in with my grandmother to house sit the dog when we went to a wedding in Chicago. We had had no troubles at that time in the neighbor hood and she asked why there was a shotgun behind the bedroom door. My 80 year old grandmother responded that
every woman needed a back up just in case. So I showed her the basics of operating a 870. When we got in the car, My grandmother looked at me and said "now you've done it. you got to marry her"..... I was shocked, we had only been dating a few months, Grandma said "if you break up with her, she'll shoot you, if you cheat on her she shoot you, Son, your life is just over" That was 27 years ago

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:51 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
You fight like you train - only much worse - and that is a fact.


There. Fixed it for you.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:28 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Pinnacle wrote:
You fight like you train - only much worse - and that is a fact.


There. Fixed it for you.


You have to start somewhere....

If you dont train properly - you will not perform to your full capabilities.

rememebr you fall to the level of your own incompetence. Trick is not to allow yourself to fall that far.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:28 am 
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It sounds like they are serious about the above story. Good for them.

1911fan wrote:
He very much drilled it into her head that safety did not come from a switch or lever, but from the operator. She took the issues to heart and to mind and now is an excellent weapons handler.


I think I am going to start using those exact words. That was something that was implied when I was teaching people, may as well make it explicit.

1911fan wrote:
My 80 year old grandmother responded that every woman needed a back up just in case.
...
Grandma said "if you break up with her, she'll shoot you, if you cheat on her she shoot you, Son, your life is just over"


Awesome grandma, great wife. Congratulations!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:20 am 
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Srigs wrote:
Apparently Glocks and police do mix! :wink:

Repeat after me...
1. Drop the mag
2. Verify that mag is out of the gun
3. Open the slide and lock it back
4. Check chamber and leave the gun locked back
5. Recheck the gun again

It is good for police to have mag safety disconnects I guess. :shock:


Just to be difficult, perhaps it's BAD for the police to rely on magazine disconnects as a Safety because it can ingrain poor safety practices. My feeling on safety is that if you ALWAYS do it the SAFEST way, under stress you SHOULD remember and it should be HABIT to DO IT RIGHT!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:36 am 
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Quote:
safety does not come from a switch or lever, but from the operator


RULE 1: A gun is always loaded.

Ignore that and you open yourself for a ND ...cop or civilian... :shock:

.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:38 am 
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plblark wrote:
Just to be difficult, perhaps it's BAD for the police to rely on magazine disconnects as a Safety because it can ingrain poor safety practices.


I think this is true for just about everyting. Instead of learning how to use something safely, they depend on safeties.

With that said, man do I hate ani-lock brakes. :x


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:03 am 
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1911fan wrote:
but on the back nine at North Oaks or Interlachen, I really think a 1911 in the golf bag is pretty well prepared.

Al Capone carried a 12 gauge in his golf bag. No zippers to fumble with. Adapt your weapon to your concealment possibilities I always say!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:34 am 
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ok, since we've veered so far off topic, here goes.
Golf bag transports make GREAT gun cases for transport. A friend (who is also a member here) recently bought one of those plastic golf bag travel carriers. the kind that latch shut and have wheels. He got it for a steal at the Thrift store.

When I saw it on his living room floor and he opened it to reveal 5-6 long guns my suspicions were confirmed.AWESOME. Compact, latched, reasonably secure, WHEELED storage that would not look out of place in your trunk.


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