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 Gabe Suarez: IS CAPACITY IMPORTANT IN A PISTOL?? 
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 Post subject: Gabe Suarez: IS CAPACITY IMPORTANT IN A PISTOL??
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:56 am 
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Interesting read-----------
------------------------------

In Light Of The Goings On Recently, Perhaps Revisiting This Is Timely

IS CAPACITY IMPORTANT IN A PISTOL??


If you believe the stats, then simply carry a J-Frame snubby with five shots, no reload, and never mind with any of the rest...because statistically it don't matter. Whistling through the woods telling yourself, "there are no wolves, there are no wolves", will not change their minds about how tasty you might be.

Statistically they may never choose a human over a rabbitt. Remember, you have your five.

Consider that you can probably shoot a full-sized Glock 17 far better and faster and with greater accuracy than you can a snubby with five shots. (Don't bore me with what McGivern could do, tell me about what you can do right now.)...and then show me live on a force on force drill.

Consider that a hand-filling gun automatically holds more than 5 shots. In fact, the Glock 23 that I shoot better than I shoot my snubby automatically comes with 8 more shots than I will need...statistically speaking. Of course, you can always block out your magazines to hold only five if you wish.

Consider that people miss in gunfights because a gunfight is more typified by the force on force drill we do and not by the shooting sdrills done at marksmanship-based schools. A gun guru who says he's never missed in a gunfight has not been in many reactive gunfights. Hell, even Jelly Bryce missed with two out of six in a reactive fight. Having extra ammo will help you catch up if you do miss.

Consider that the same statistics tell that multiple adversarties are the rule and not the exception. Consider that if its possible to miss when reacting to one, it is three times as likely when reacting to three. Go up against three uncooperative adversaries in a force on force drills (as opposed to a masturbatory el presidente on the safe and sane shooting range) with only five shots in your airsoft and then tell me again about statistics.

Consider that the Islamic Terrorist in SLC WAS NOT STOPPED by a man with seven shots. He chose not to attack the 1911 armed guy because the islamic terrorist was in fact a coward.

Apples and oranges? Just as many cowards are thwarted without the good guy firing a shot. Are we to carry replicas with which to threaten only, because of this?

When I worked in the PRK, I carried no less than three pistols, and close to 75 rounds on my person. I had another bag of five 15 round magazines in the car and a shotgun or Colt Commando. Ammo is cheap, life is costly so I planned to be generous with my ammo.


I wrote an article for CCW mag a few months ago titled something like - How Important is Capacity?

My idea is that capacity is a definite asset. First thing of course is shootability. I have students with very small hands. What do I suggest to them? Get a Kahr or Kel-Tec because they will fit. Their fingers would not even reach the trigger on a Glock 19. However, just as it is better to be big and strong instead of small and strong, you must understand the limits you face.

I have nothing against 1911s...or SIG P-220s for that matter, but they are not for me. Personally I prefer a few more shots. I know enough about gunfights to tell you that unless you are being totally proactive and preemptive, you may easily miss. Human adversaries will not stand there and smile at you, posed for the "Grip" like the B-27 target, while you fire a "tight group". Come to any force on force class and see if you can hit with everything you shoot? Heck, even Jelly Bryce missed with a couple out of his pistol when he shot the robber in the whorehouse as he, "jumped to the side and then tore him up (shot him to the ground on the move)".

Another issue is the myth of "they all fall to hardball". Sorry, no they don't. They don't even fall to shotgun slugs all the time, let alone a puny pistol bullet. The only single shot stop I ever saw was a heart shot from a Sig P-226. It was a Win 115gr JHP 9mm. Motivated human adversaries (as opposed to Pepper Poppers on the range) will keep fighting with horrible physical damage. So please do not overestimate or underestimate a pistol round. They are all fairly similar.



A higher capacity will allow you to stay in the fight longer and dominate the fight more decisively. Knowing that you will need more than a single or a pair per man (simply due perhaps to delayed reactions), and that the stats themselves say there will probably be more than one bad guy, and that the dynamics of the fight may create a situation where you simply may not be able to hit with every shot, as high a capacity as you can handle is the best option.

Another issue is shootability under stress. You should be able to shoot the pistol with any grip, under any circumstances, in any position. To say that you will always be able to get a perfect "combat grip" is optimistic at best. Again, please come to a FOF class and try it out. On the range from open carry it is easy. When you are being shot at and you are sprinting to get off the x and trying to draw under the polo shirt concealment, that combat grip often turns into a Fed Flintstone grip. Will you pistol work with a Fred Flintstone grip?

I carry a Glock 22 or 23 because it suits me, and because it will work under the conditions of combat I choose to prepare for. Is it a worst case? Yes it is. I've found through the years that this policy is far better than playing the odds and then being caught short at the moment of truth.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Very interesting read and something I've thought about myself. Recent crime reports seen here at http://mplscrimewatch.blogspot.com/ often report assaults in the Twin Cities by multiple attackers.

If I pull out my 5 shot snubby will they run? Maybe... If I shoot one, will the rest run? Maybe...

More and more carrying the XD45 with 14 shots or the sub-compact with 10 seems like a better choice than 5 shots. Like the author of the article, I can also hit better rapid fire with a pistol than with a snub revolver.

Good topic for discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:22 am 
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You know this is something that I have been pondering for quite some time now.

The more I shoot and the more that I practice - and let my mind wander - I tend to agree with Suarez but I am not prepared fully to drink that brand of kool aid either.

I used to carry my G17 and G19 exclusively - I went to a 229 and now a 1911 - seems that the older that I get the larger caliber that I prefer for some reason - I know that I am giving up a lot of capacity to the wondernines and I am actually ok with that.

I think that there is something that we need to remember - you MUST learn to reload - you must carry an extra mag at least. If you are ina gunfight and there are mroe than 8 shots fired from your gun - you are in a lot of trouble and you had better be resigned to the fact that you will have to reload - you will likely be outnumbered - you will likely be hurt.

There are a lot of advantages to a gun with a huge gas tank - if you can keep firing if you must - you are still in the fight.

I am not a cop - I am not a soldier - I am someone that needs to protect ME and I feel completely comfortable carrying just a 1911 and a couple of mags.

I am a huge advocate of carrying - no matter the gun that you have - a reload - there are just some problems that cannot be fixed with anything other than changing mags.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:30 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
You know this is something that I have been pondering for quite some time now.

The more I shoot and the more that I practice - and let my mind wander - I tend to agree with Suarez but I am not prepared fully to drink that brand of kool aid either.

I used to carry my G17 and G19 exclusively - I went to a 229 and now a 1911 - seems that the older that I get the larger caliber that I prefer for some reason - I know that I am giving up a lot of capacity to the wondernines and I am actually ok with that.

I think that there is something that we need to remember - you MUST learn to reload - you must carry an extra mag at least. If you are ina gunfight and there are mroe than 8 shots fired from your gun - you are in a lot of trouble and you had better be resigned to the fact that you will have to reload - you will likely be outnumbered - you will likely be hurt.

There are a lot of advantages to a gun with a huge gas tank - if you can keep firing if you must - you are still in the fight.

I am not a cop - I am not a soldier - I am someone that needs to protect ME and I feel completely comfortable carrying just a 1911 and a couple of mags.

I am a huge advocate of carrying - no matter the gun that you have - a reload - there are just some problems that cannot be fixed with anything other than changing mags.


Pinnacle,

Buy a gun that doesn't have problems....... :lol:

Try a P7M13, I have over 150,000 rounds through mine and only 3 problems, that were not from reloads. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

And before you say it, I know, I need to learn to reload better..
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:49 am 
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When I mean reload - I mean change ammunition feeding devices.

You are just fine on that front my friend. I have seen it....
:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:58 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
When I mean reload - I mean change ammunition feeding devices.

You are just fine on that front my friend. I have seen it....
:lol:


:D :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:49 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
I am not a cop - I am not a soldier - I am someone that needs to protect ME and I feel completely comfortable carrying just a 1911 and a couple of mags

Yeah, "Just a 1911" :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:00 am 
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Pinnacle wrote:
When I mean reload - I mean change ammunition feeding devices.


I think that they are called magazines - at least for 1911's ....
:P :P :P :P :P


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:08 am 
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Ramoel wrote:
Pinnacle wrote:
I am not a cop - I am not a soldier - I am someone that needs to protect ME and I feel completely comfortable carrying just a 1911 and a couple of mags

Yeah, "Just a 1911" :lol:


What I mean by "just a 1911" is a limited tank capacity vs. a G17 with 18 on tap...

I cannot stress enough the virtues of performing reloads and malfunction clearances in a timely manner. The loudest sound a gun can make is a click in lieu of a bang.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Pinnacle wrote:
The loudest sound a gun can make is a click in lieu of a bang.

I think a bang in lieu of a click would be louder. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:23 pm 
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macphisto wrote:
Pinnacle wrote:
The loudest sound a gun can make is a click in lieu of a bang.

I think a bang in lieu of a click would be louder. :wink:


Actually it does not matter which one it is, it is still the loudest sound you have ever heard. :D

I have unfortunately heard the click instead of bang, thankfully it was only while deer hunting and not in a life and death situation. The old adage is that these are the loudest sounds in the world. Either way it usually requires new undershorts. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:06 pm 
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Gabe is an interesting guy but he is trying to get you to pay him to teach you at his schools. He has developed some interesting training methods, and does a lot of sim-u-nition and Air Soft stuff, and some people swear by it. He is a real big supporter of "the army of you" sort of mindset, that we are to be completely covert, be armed to the teeth, and on color orange all day long. Condition Yellow does not exist in his world.

Quite frankly a lot of what he espouses does nothing for me, but he has his following.

That said, his pressing the need to carry multiple reloads for multiple guns and then fighting knives with back up knives, makes Jack Bauer look like a wimp.

If you live in Watts or Compton or similar places, I can understand that, but on the back nine at North Oaks or Interlachen, I really think a 1911 in the golf bag is pretty well prepared.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:53 am 
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"I can understand that, but on the back nine at North Oaks or Interlachen, I really think a 1911 in the golf bag is pretty well prepared."

I guess a 1911 would be considered an iron!!!!
:wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:53 am 
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We all make our choices about what works for us.

Me it is a primary with one reload (20 to 25 rounds) and back up with 5 to 8 rounds.

Knowing how to draw from holster and reload is very important. It is something everyone should practice.

The only sure stopping power is a train, bus or semi IMHO. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:44 am 
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Srigs wrote:
We all make our choices about what works for us.

Me it is a primary with one reload (20 to 25 rounds) and back up with 5 to 8 rounds.

Knowing how to draw from holster and reload is very important. It is something everyone should practice.

The only sure stopping power is a train, bus or semi IMHO. :shock:


I can tell you this - there is a lot of cool aid out there to be drank - Suarez has a good reputation and all of that - but here is the thing. I have taken classes from numerous accredited places - from a lot of folks - everyone has a way of doing things and not to do things.

You have to take the good with the bad and sort it out and see what works. There are a lot of people out there that say that you have to carry 2 guns and reloads for both - horseshit.

IMHO carry one good gun - and a reload or two for it - and then you are better armed than 99.99% of the sheeple that you will encounter. If you can and it is practical - carry a gun of Major caliber (9mm, 40, 45, 357) if it is practical....

You run into that wolf that may be better armed than you - then you are counting on your skill at arms against his sheer aggression and likely lack of real experience or training.

Carry a reload - like I have said before - if you have a problem - sometimes there is only one way that it can be fixed - and that is with a fresh mag - and you had better do it fast.

A lot of these teachers out there think that we are all living in the wild wild west where gunfights break out at the drop of a hat and you had better have multiple layers of redundancy in your plan... 3 Knives, 3 guns - 100 rounds of ammunition..... GIVE ME A BREAK.

Sure there were times that I carried 2 guns - did I ever need the second one - NOPE. Was it nice to know that it was there? Yes...

The things that I took from all of the training that I have had is the mindset and the manual of arms with each platform that I used. Mindset is the key.... Not how much shit you can carry - or how loud the magnetometer goes off when you walk through... mindset seems to be the key.

A fighting mindset - a good handgun that you shoot well and can fix problems with fast - and a reload... And you are well armed in my opinion.

My opinion about holster work -

A lot of people are going to scream at me for this and not like me a whole lot - but here it goes.

We all carry in one holster or another - the problem is that most people have never been properly trained to make a proper and safe presentation from a holster. I have seen it time and time again - you all have the equipment - but I am sure that this is the thing that you all practice the least - and likely if you do practice it is not good practice.

Drawing for a holster is something that you MUST learn to do safely - and smoothly...


Mr. Smooth
Your motions could be slow - but you are as smooth as glass - you hit your 5 count perfectly - you are pointed in perfectly with the proper firing grip on count 5 -

Mr. Frantic
you are as fast as lightning - you get your hand on that gun so fast it is astounding - you fumble and stumble - your support hand gets muzzled - you have a poor firing grip on the weapon - you forget where to disengage the safety (1911 shooters) - your sight alignment is horseshit and you finally get it all together and fire - you miss in the rush that you are in and it was a lot slower than Mr. Smooth...

Mr. Smooth above who was at full presentation a full second faster than you were moving slowly - and he actually placed his first hit on target... Which is all that matters.

Learn to draw efficinetly from your holsters - this is the first step to saving your ass.

We dont draw a gun from a holster - we make a presentation. When you practice it needs to be PERFECT... You fight like you train - and that is a fact.


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