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 Ammo: Light weight, high speed OR Heavy weight, low speed 
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 Post subject: Ammo: Light weight, high speed OR Heavy weight, low speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:15 pm 
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If all other factors are equal (reliability, POA to POI, etc.), what would you carry? For example, Hornady TAP 40 S&W 155 grain has 479 lb-ft of energy and 1180 FPS, the 180 grain version has 361 lb-ft of energy and 950 FPS. What would be best for carry? Even though the lighter bullet has more energy, does the heavier bullet have better energy transfer and therefore more knockdown power?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Well, you know I am not going to answer. I just responded to your e-mail that you sent to me, with my own answer. I am curious as to what others think here also. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Generally a slower but heavier bullet has greater penetration. That can be good or bad in a self defense situation. You don't want to shoot all the way through but you need to go deep enough to stop the attack.

This can be, and has been, the subject of many long discussions on various gun forums. As for myself, I prefer big, slow and heavy which for me means .45 ACP.

You'll always get a lot of different opinions on this subject. Bullet placement still means more than almost everything else.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:36 pm 
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I am fairly lucky, in my two carry guns, 185 +P and 230 +P hit to the same spot more or less, out to 25 yards. so for the longest time I have been shooting 185 +p JHP during the summer, and 230 +P for the winter. The heavier bullets have tested out as giving much deeper penetration even plugged with clothing or after having hit six layers of material. The 185's had shown to open quickly and efficiently without blowing thru people when they not wearing many outer layers and tend to stay with in the body.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:06 pm 
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I carry a 230 gr +p that I have chronoed at about 820 fps out of a 4" 1911.

I am a fan of the slow heavy bullet.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Based only upon my experience whitetail deer hunting with rifles, blackpowder rifles and shotgun slugs: big drops the deer quicker. Small & faster they run farther before they drop. Both are dead, it just seems with the bigger bullet the quicker they drop even if the small & fast has more muzzle energy.

Just my limited experience.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:41 pm 
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I know off topic. But deer that I have shot with bigger and slower bullets have a lot less meat damage than lighter and faster bullet, I guess call hydrostatic effect (maybe the correct term). The bullet weight that I shot them with had little difference in them stopping, hitting major bone structure did make a difference, but out of a major caliber rifle, that bullet, no matter the weight would still do the same thing. I am not trying to dispute others, so what am I saying? There are many thing to take into account when you are shooting to stop the attack. I think the theory of using a heavier bullet in the winter with winter clothing makes sense, that is one reason that I do not like specialty ammunition like frangible. Another major thing that is more important than bullet weight is caliber. If you are shooting a .25 or .32, there are a lot more things to take into consideration. But shooting a .40 or .45, you have less issues when it comes to bullet weight because both cartridges will push a light or heavy bullets fast enough to do damage.

So which is more important, the tissue damage or the bone structure damage, I think both a .40 and .45 will do both if bullet placement is where it needs to be.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:42 pm 
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When we're done with this one, let's tackle some similar questions: Coke or Pepsi? Protestant or Catholic? Mac or PC? :D

I figure they're all going to sting a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:07 am 
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Won't really matter all that much - which ever shoots in your gun better is the 'best' bullet for you!

interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Apparently the best round - is the biggest (in frontal area) that you can shoot accurately as studies have proven that no one has ever died from being missed! 8)

Note that it may help to tell the person that they have been shot... in hopes that they are predisposed to fall down when shot... 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:16 am 
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Mac's rule! no wait, PC's Rule! but what about them rule...Windows rules! no, Linux RUles! damn, um, BSD, BeOS, Solaris, SCO, Xenix, Dos rules! Grrrrrr. Never mind they all suck. Anybody have an old VAX they don't want? Although that'll probably suck too. I think I've been in this industry to long. I can't even old the old standbye religious argument with myself. I suppose I could do vi versus emacs, but I've never used emacs...wait a second, perfect, if I've never used it I can bash it abd denigrate it all I want just like the anti-gun fundies do! Emacs sucks!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:21 am 
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More on topic,

I use 230gr because it is what feels correct to me. I have both light and heavy ball for my Mosin-Nagant that I will be testing once it gets warmer to figure out which I prefer.

I think the biggest determining factor for bullet weight and speed is is it effective? does it do what needs to be done? If so, than that particular round is a win. They'll both stop a bad guy, why argue about which ones better, it's too subjective.

Personally I like the big and slow, but then as my pistol choices are a .45 or a .22 the decision has been made without me.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:15 am 
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meltedeyes wrote:
Mac's rule! no wait, PC's Rule! but what about them rule...Windows rules! no, Linux RUles! damn, um, BSD, BeOS, Solaris, SCO, Xenix, Dos rules! Grrrrrr. Never mind they all suck. Anybody have an old VAX they don't want? Although that'll probably suck too. I think I've been in this industry to long. I can't even old the old standbye religious argument with myself. I suppose I could do vi versus emacs, but I've never used emacs...wait a second, perfect, if I've never used it I can bash it abd denigrate it all I want just like the anti-gun fundies do! Emacs sucks!


Yup, you've been in the industry too long. I remember that string of long gibberish that was my VAX mail account...

On topic, I read reviews on ammo like anything else. My preferred caliber at the moment is 9mm, and my preferred ammo is Federal 124gr HST. I'm sure someone will come along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong. :wink:

-Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Dang - I was just looking at a report on those and a bunch of other but didn't save the link 8)

The HST's had problems puncturing the 2nd water bottle - and that was the +P's! So it was determined that there was insufficient penatration as while it ran clean through the first water container it didn't puncture the second - all others punctured and came to rest in the second.

Wish I could find the dang link though. About 6 rounds were compared and each was examined in detail including Rangers, Hydroshocks, HSTs, and some others. WITH pictures!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:20 pm 
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mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote:
Won't really matter all that much - which ever shoots in your gun better is the 'best' bullet for you!

interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Apparently the best round - is the biggest (in frontal area) that you can shoot accurately as studies have proven that no one has ever died from being missed! 8)

Note that it may help to tell the person that they have been shot... in hopes that they are predisposed to fall down when shot... 8)

Mostly-


Thanks. That WAS very interesting. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Lighter and faster has less propensity to overpenetrate. People argue that 12ga buck will overpenetrate less in an HD situation than a 55gr .223 when the opposite is true.

I'm still of the opinion that bigger diameter (when expanded) is better than small, but given the same caliber, I would opt for the lighter smaller round. IE: 185gr instead of a 230gr in .45, 155 instead of 180 in .40, etc.

At the end of the day though, whatever round you control best that allows the fastest followups will beat terminal ballistics. 3x 9mm in COM beats 1 45 ACP in the arm every time.

ETA: That was a very enlightening link. Although the conclusion one might draw from it is that everyone should be shooting 230gr FMJs. Always enough penetration, and a minimum of .45" wound tract.


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