Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:47 pm

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums? 
Author Message
 Post subject: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:17 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31106408//

Quote:
Health insurance ‘haves’ to pay for ‘have-nots’?
Senate considers curbing tax-free status of employer-provided benefits

As part of a health insurance reform package now before Congress, some of the 164 million Americans who are covered by employer-provided health plans could be asked to give up at least part of the longstanding tax exemption granted to such compensation.

It’s an idea likely to be met with howls of opposition if it makes it into the final version of health insurance legislation that President Barack Obama is pushing.

The idea of limiting the tax break for employer-provided insurance gained momentum last week, when Obama told senators that he’d consider it as one ingredient of the health insurance reform bill he wants Congress to pass by early August, when the Senate starts a one-month recess.

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., who conveyed Obama’s willingness to consider the idea after a White House meeting Tuesday, has said the tax treatment of employer-provided health insurance ought to be made “fairer and more equitable for everyone.”

Will you end up with more taxable income?
While details of such an approach are still sketchy, it would likely involve employees paying tax on a percentage of their employer-provided health benefits. So if Congress decided that all such premiums in excess of $11,000 for family plans would be taxable income, and your company paid premiums worth $16,000 for your coverage, you’d have to pay taxes on $5,000.

Obama’s new openness to the idea stands in contrast to what he said six months ago as a presidential candidate, when he harshly criticized his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, for proposing that employer-provided benefits should be taxed.

Scolding McCain in their debate on Oct. 15, Obama said, “This is your plan, John. For the first time in history, you will be taxing people's health-care benefits.”

Obama also pledged last year not to raise taxes for families making less than $250,000, and a health benefits tax, depending on how it was structured, could run afoul of that promise.

The tax exemption on employer-provided health insurance, which dates to 1943, has already survived one attempt to limit it.

An echo of Ronald Reagan
In 1984, President Ronald Reagan floated the idea of requiring workers to pay taxes on employer contributions to their health insurance exceeding $2,100 a year. A Washington Post editorial the following year called the proposal “surprisingly lucrative yet eminently fair,” and speculated that “(it) might have helped hold down health care costs in the bargain.” But opposition, especially from labor unions, scuttled the proposal.

Obama’s new receptivity to the tax springs from the massive sums of money needed to pay for expanding health coverage to the uninsured.

Obama’s Council of Economic Advisors last week cited a figure of about $125 billion a year to insure the uninsured. But the president aims to do more than that. He also wants to subsidize the cost of coverage for lower-income people, subsidize COBRA coverage for those who lost their jobs and make other changes.

MIT economist Jonathan Gruber told the Finance Committee last month that curbing the health insurance tax break was “both the most natural source of financing for health care reform” and “one of the few that is clearly large enough to finance the subsidies needed for reform.”

According to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, the Treasury misses out on $226 billion a year because employer spending on health insurance isn’t counted as taxable income.

That figure dwarfs any other potential health-related revenue sources that have been identified as possibilities to help fund the health care expansion. Among them are a 3-cent-per-can tax on sugar-sweetened beverages, which the Congressional Budget Office estimates would raise about $50 billion over 10 years, or increasing taxes on beer, wine and distilled liquor which, under one CBO scenario, would raise $60 billion over 10 years.

A boon for upper-income people
According to an analysis by the Joint Committee on Taxation, curbing the tax break for employer-provided health insurance would primarily affect the wealthy, who “receive the greatest tax benefit from the exclusion from income.” According to Gruber, “about three-quarters of these dollars go to the top half of the income distribution.”

But opposition to the proposal may be as big a problem for Obama as it was for Reagan.

A Kaiser Family Foundation survey in April that asked whether workers “with the most generous health care benefits” should be required to pay taxes on their coverage found 52 percent of respondents opposed to the idea. Of those who currently have employer-sponsored health insurance, 62 percent opposed it. (The poll of 1,203 adults had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.)

Will Americans bridle at loss of tax break?
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce warned Baucus in a letter last month that workers view employer-provided insurance “as duly-earned income” that should be “protected from the tax collector. This perception perhaps explains why the president was so successful in campaigning against Senator McCain’s health reform proposal — Americans generally do not support tax increases.”

The American Benefits Council, which represents principally Fortune 500 companies, is also opposed to the idea of limiting the tax break for employer-provided insurance.

“It is likely to lead to higher deductibles or co-pays, so there’s higher cost sharing” by workers, said the group’s health care spokesman, Paul Dennett. If Congress were to set the threshold for taxation of benefits at $13,000 for a family coverage plan, then employers “in order to help workers not face taxation, may offer coverage below that threshold. This is a course employers say they would likely take.”

Reduction in health benefits?
Economist Elise Gould at the liberal think-tank the Economic Policy Institute gave a similar assessment. Employers would see the threshold for taxation as what the government deemed the target level for health benefits, she said. “Employers will respond by reducing the comprehensiveness of benefits. They’ll likely target premiums to fall below the (threshold) value or just at that value, so employees don’t have to pay those additional taxes.”

Corporate America also fears that a limit on the tax break for health insurance would create an administrative nightmare, especially for large firms with employees in different states who face widely varying health care costs.

And opposition also remains strong among labor unions, which were big Obama backers in last year’s election.

Barbara Coufal, the assistant director of legislation at American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, said, “We don’t think we need to look inside the health care system to seek all the revenues we need for health care reform. Over the last 10 years, there have been a lot of tax breaks that have been given to the wealthy and to businesses. We maybe ought to look there and restore some equity.”

With momentum growing to enact some limit on the tax break for health benefits, increasing energy is being devoted to develop a workable taxation scheme.

Target upper-income Americans?
Gruber suggested the possibility of having a baseline so that only families with incomes above $125,000 per year would pay tax on their benefits. Gruber said this would still raise a lot of revenue: more than $40 billion a year if the cap were indexed to increases in the Consumer Price Index.

But in its letter to Baucus, the Chamber of Commerce said that such a proposal might “foster class warfare by (repealing the exclusion) … for certain income earners and not affecting others.”

Baucus, a 30-year Senate veteran, knows the politics of this issue are delicate. Limiting the tax break for employer-provided health benefits has “got to be done in a very sensitive way, to make sure the limits are high enough,” he was quoted as saying last Thursday by the Capitol Hill publication CQ Today.

Yet if Congress changes the law so that the tax bite ends up hitting only the wealthy, it might not raise enough revenue to help pay for health insurance overhaul.

“That’s the real dilemma,” said Dennett, of the American Benefits Council. “The lower the threshold is set, then the lower the revenue gain — and the scramble would be on to find other revenue sources.”


Anybody else getting really fucking sick of all the ways politicians can find to dip their hands in our pockets?

It was a bad idea when Reagan had it. It was a bad idea when McCain had it. And it's a bad idea now that Obama has it.

And DOUBLE shame on Reagan and McCain. Conservatives supporting more taxes are disgusting. I expect it from the left.

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:20 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
My premiums have been "below the line" ever since I stopped working for the man.

Feel my pain.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:27 am 
Longtime Regular

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am
Posts: 2444
Location: West Central MN
Every self employed person pays out of taxable income.

This would level the field, and probably force out nation to deal with the health care monopoly in a realistic way.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:42 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 am
Posts: 1684
Location: St Louis Park
Dick Unger wrote:
This would level the field, and probably force out nation to deal with the health care monopoly in a realistic way.


Allow the government to solidify their monopoly in a socialist way? There's nothing realistic about the way DC is handling economics or finances. This will be another failed pipe dream pushed to placate the gullible. We'll all be equally screwed if it passes. Yay equality!

I could have sworn that we were promised that "not one dime" would be raised in taxes unless you made more than $250k.

_________________
Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.

--------------------
Next MN carry permit class: TBD.

Permit to Carry MN
--------------------

jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:53 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 am
Posts: 1684
Location: St Louis Park
Dick Unger wrote:
This would level the field,


The way to actually level the playing field and improve choice, increase competition and maintain quality(thing socialized health care has never done any where it has been implemented) would be to make health insurance premiums tax deductible. Let people find their own provider that meets their needs. Force providers to compete on price and quality.

Hmm, a solution that involves less government bungling? Never get it out of this administration. Or, to be fair, any other likely administration.

_________________
Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.

--------------------
Next MN carry permit class: TBD.

Permit to Carry MN
--------------------

jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:02 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
I have a lot of medical folks as clients, and if you ask them why rates have gone up so much over the last few decades it's all due to HMOs and insurance.

Get rid of the damn HMOs, make health care tax deductible 100%, and punish people who file frivolous claims. I bet you'd start seeing reasonable costs again.

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:17 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:23 pm
Posts: 1419
Location: SE MPLS
mrokern wrote:
I have a lot of medical folks as clients, and if you ask them why rates have gone up so much over the last few decades it's all due to HMOs and insurance.

Get rid of the damn HMOs, make health care tax deductible 100%, and punish people who file frivolous claims. I bet you'd start seeing reasonable costs again.

-Mark

If we want to restore market forces in health care (of which there are damned few left) we need to break the somebody-else-pays-for-it principle.

If my employer buys me health coverage, he gets a tax break. If I buy my own, I do not. Either I should get the tax break, or my employer should not. We should not structure the tax code to encourage employer health coverage. I've nothing against employers providing health plans, but if I am willing to pay more for more coverage, or would prefer to pay less for less coverage, I should be able to do so without tax consequences.

As for Obamacare - I'm not opposed to a government-run health plan operating in competition with the private market provided that: 1., it is not taxpayer-subsidized, and 2., it isn't accompanied by coverage mandates on private insurers.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:31 pm 
Member

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Lakeville/Apple Valley
jdege wrote:
If we want to restore market forces in health care (of which there are damned few left) we need to break the somebody-else-pays-for-it principle.
.


Ahem to that. Too many people out there fail to realize the true cost of health care, and fail to take any proactive measures to find out how much things cost, how their insurance even works etc.

Also, I see this running afoul to his pro-labor stance since many non-unionized companies have already slashed back on premiums by going the way of the high deductible and HSA plans, where the unions still mandate "co-pay" plans which have SIGNIFICANTLY larger premiums then HDHP/HSA plans.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:54 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
While we're at it, we should abolish income tax withholding.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:57 pm 
Raving Moderate
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:46 pm
Posts: 1292
Location: Minneapolis
DeanC wrote:
While we're at it, we should abolish income tax withholding.


Absolutely. And prohibit the flu. :wink: :roll:

_________________
I'm liberal, pro-choice, and I carry a gun. Any questions?

My real name is Jeremiah (go figure). ;)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:01 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
I'm not saying abolish taxes, just make people actually write the check and mail it in like I have to.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:09 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 am
Posts: 1684
Location: St Louis Park
DeanC wrote:
I'm not saying abolish taxes, just make people actually write the check and mail it in like I have to.


Never happen. If people realized what they actually paid in taxes, we'd have armed revolt in a week. Most people think "taxes" are the check you get in the spring, not the unpleasantly unlubricated line items on their paychecks.

_________________
Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.

--------------------
Next MN carry permit class: TBD.

Permit to Carry MN
--------------------

jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:26 pm 
Member

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Lakeville/Apple Valley
And most of the population would just spend the money that's supposed to be paid in.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:34 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
princewally wrote:
Never happen. If people realized what they actually paid in taxes, we'd have armed revolt in a week.

And that's exactly why we should do it.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:34 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
morgasco wrote:
And most of the population would just spend the money that's supposed to be paid in.

Better us than the government.

_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group