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 Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for 
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 Post subject: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:54 am 
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Here's a portion of what Teddy said on the floor of the Senate during the hearings for the nomination of Judge Robert Bork to the Supreme Court:

". . .Robert Bork's America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids, schoolchildren could not be taught about evolution, writers and artists could be censored at the whim of the Government. . ."

This from the "Lion of the Senate," as his admirers styled him. Five outright lies in just a few grand words, eloquently delivered in his wonderful, patrician voice.

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Yup. A speech which totally changed the way America viewed Bork. Granted, there were issues of substance to be concerned about re: Bork's views, but none of them were in Kennedy's speech...and nothing in Kennedy's speech was of any substance.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Well, all this stuff did happen in America. And it happened at a time when Robert Bork's views of legal interpretation prevailed. It changed because modern "liberal" judges came to believe these conditions were irrational. Kennedy saw society changing by a change in the way the law was interpreted instead of by legislation.

Whether you agree with the substanive changes Kennedy favored, or the method that would continue the change, it's hardly a lie. It's just what he said he believed. And this stuff happened at a time when the courts took no responsibility for injustice, as long as the injustice was "legal".

It's not logical to demonize Kennedy for this, or say he's lying when is giving an opinion, he's hardly a constitional scholar, and his ideas were in the mainstream.

In any event the Kennedy days are over. But the possibility that the legal system would again support the things Kennedy described as "Robert Bork's America" remains with us. :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Quote:
". . .Robert Bork's America is a land in which... rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids,
Well, this seems to have happened regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Normally, I'd be tempted to urge people to not speak ill of the dead. But this isn't normal; some Democrats are waving Teddy's bloody shirt in an attempt to get his bill passed, so, alas, I won't do that.

Carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:09 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Normally, I'd be tempted to urge people to not speak ill of the dead. But this isn't normal; some Democrats are waving Teddy's bloody shirt in an attempt to get his bill passed, so, alas, I won't do that.

Carry on.


Didn't they run that same play during Wellstone's funeral?

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Traveler wrote:
joelr wrote:
Normally, I'd be tempted to urge people to not speak ill of the dead. But this isn't normal; some Democrats are waving Teddy's bloody shirt in an attempt to get his bill passed, so, alas, I won't do that.

Carry on.


Didn't they run that same play during Wellstone's funeral?

:D :D :D
Much, much more blatant and awkward. Rick Katz doesn't work for the national Democrats, and they're a lot less clumsy.

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
Well, all this stuff did happen in America. And it happened at a time when Robert Bork's views of legal interpretation prevailed. It changed because modern "liberal" judges came to believe these conditions were irrational. Kennedy saw society changing by a change in the way the law was interpreted instead of by legislation.

Whether you agree with the substanive changes Kennedy favored, or the method that would continue the change, it's hardly a lie. It's just what he said he believed. And this stuff happened at a time when the courts took no responsibility for injustice, as long as the injustice was "legal".

It's not logical to demonize Kennedy for this, or say he's lying when is giving an opinion, he's hardly a constitional scholar, and his ideas were in the mainstream.

In any event the Kennedy days are over. But the possibility that the legal system would again support the things Kennedy described as "Robert Bork's America" remains with us. :evil:


". . . it's hardly a lie. It's just what he said he believed. . . . ."

Sorry, but that's just not an adequate defense. Saying things about someone that you know are extremely unlikely to be true is morally the same as lying. You can't hide behind the "just an opinion" fig leaf. There is no practical difference between saying that the governor of Massachusetts believes in legalizing child rape, and then claiming, when questioned, that it might be true, and that I didn't know at the time that it wasn't true, that I was just voicing my opinion.

One of the huge problems with what liberalism has come to be, and a major reason I left the political Left, is this very idea that you can demonize conservatives because they believe in [fill in the blanks with things like forcing black folks to the back of the bus, starving schoolchildren, censoring art] because it's the kind of thing that conservatives actually believe is right, even if they won't say so.

For example, censoring art. No conservative that I have ever heard of has ever advocated censorship in any form normally recognized as censorship. What most have advocated is stopping government sponsorship of things that at least some people find offensive, for example a painting of the Virgin Mary splattered in elephant dung, or showing a photo of a crucifix submerged in urine. They say public money should not be spent to support such things.

Withdrawing public funding for that is not censorship. Banning the work from display would be. This is one of those differences that are obvious to normal people but invisible (or at least conveniently difficult to see) for those on the Left.

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
Well, all this stuff did happen in America. And it happened at a time when Robert Bork's views of legal interpretation prevailed. It changed because modern "liberal" judges came to believe these conditions were irrational. Kennedy saw society changing by a change in the way the law was interpreted instead of by legislation.

Whether you agree with the substanive changes Kennedy favored, or the method that would continue the change, it's hardly a lie. It's just what he said he believed. And this stuff happened at a time when the courts took no responsibility for injustice, as long as the injustice was "legal".

It's not logical to demonize Kennedy for this, or say he's lying when is giving an opinion, he's hardly a constitional scholar, and his ideas were in the mainstream.

In any event the Kennedy days are over. But the possibility that the legal system would again support the things Kennedy described as "Robert Bork's America" remains with us. :evil:


Opinion? Absolutely.

But Kennedy knew full well what impact his floor speech would have on the public, and phrased it to get exactly the effect he desired.

There was far more to Kennedy's speech than just getting Bork's nomination to fail. He was trying to steer the focus of the upcoming presidential election; it backfired horribly.

It wasn't so much what Kennedy said, many of the ideas were actually quite sound. We DON'T want segregation, we DON'T want rogue police raids...but using them in terms of Bork was dishonest. If he wanted to attack Bork on something damaging that was truthful, all he had to do was bring up "right to privacy".

I wrote a college paper on the Bork debacle...this is a pet topic of mine. :lol:

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:18 pm 
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I'd like to read the Bork paper, the proceedings were a debacle; both sides were to blame. And the bad effects continue. In fact the tactics of politics by personal attack on the person instead of the issues, used against Bork, continue right here today.

No question, the Bork debacle changed the boundaries of acceptable conduct.

Maybe you could post the paper and we could discuss it here. (Not to put you on the spot.. :) )


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:01 am 
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joelr wrote:
Traveler wrote:
joelr wrote:
Normally, I'd be tempted to urge people to not speak ill of the dead. But this isn't normal; some Democrats are waving Teddy's bloody shirt in an attempt to get his bill passed, so, alas, I won't do that.

Carry on.


Didn't they run that same play during Wellstone's funeral?

:D :D :D
Much, much more blatant and awkward. Rick Katz doesn't work for the national Democrats, and they're a lot less clumsy.


Indeed. Katz's "eulogy" was one of the most blatant, as well as politically stupid, things I've ever seen. He managed to take a martyred senator and *lose* political support at his funeral. That takes a special kind of skill. Talk about sticking your **** in a wringer... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:56 am 
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The Katz eulogy may have been a political disaster, but it was the most fun I've ever had at a eulogy. It was like a rock concert. As a eulogy, it was great. And, I thought, a clever spoof on many who atended for political reasons and didn't give a damn for Wellstone. Those folks had no choice but to join the madness, or simply walk out, (as Jesse Ventura did). The pundits didn't get it, but I think that's what was happening.

Anyone whose death sparks a reaction like that had enthusiastic friends.

Paul's funeral gig was like being back at college in Dinkytown, with drunken friends on a Saturday night. In those days, in Dinkytown, everyone was a crazy liberal, totally naive. It was fun, didn't have to make sense.

Wha little I saw of Kennedy's wake didn't measure up to the Wellstone wake, in my opinion. It may have been more sophisticated but it was purely political and didn't spoof the politicos.


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 Post subject: Re: Five more things to remember Teddy Kennedy for
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:36 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
I'd like to read the Bork paper, the proceedings were a debacle; both sides were to blame. And the bad effects continue. In fact the tactics of politics by personal attack on the person instead of the issues, used against Bork, continue right here today.

No question, the Bork debacle changed the boundaries of acceptable conduct.

Maybe you could post the paper and we could discuss it here. (Not to put you on the spot.. :) )


I'd have to dig it up. No lie, it was long hand. Not that there weren't computers 10 years ago, but my professor HATED technology with a passion. No email, would barely agree to talk on the phone, refused to own a computer of any sort or even have one in his office (there was an epic scene when campus IT showed up with his brand new laptop and he threatened to throw it out the window if it so much as touched any piece of furniture in his office). We either had to abide by the most obnoxious formatting rules for typing known to man, or just write it out longhand. I actually think better with a pen, so I went that route.

I can't explain the man, but he's still of the most brilliant legal minds I've met. His idea of a vacation is teaching an Intro to Constitutional Law at Yale Law School during the summer, which he's done every year for as long as I've heard. He was also my first introduction to a rabid libertarian. :D

-Mark


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